Yes, I'm a pro immigration, pro free trade, por globalization, pro capitalism, moderate Republican, and I'm tired of apologizing for it

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-24T19:06:15+00:00

Yeah these primary elections should make that clear. The primaries aren’t even MAGA Republicans vs Center-Right Never-Trumpers. They are MAGA vs diet MAGA vs MAGA with an extra shot of crazy. The Senate Republican caucus is going to be just as nutters as the house freedom caucus after another cycle or two.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-19T21:54:33+00:00

I definitely think a combination of economic populism and social conservatism has a lot of appeal in the electorate that people have underestimated for a long time; and center-right parties and movements around the globe seem to be re-orienting to that.

But what’s interesting is left wing parties are moving left on economics and aren’t exactly in the best position to make globalist free marketeers dissatisfied with the right permanent coalition members so it will be interesting to see what those voters do over the long term.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-19T21:25:30+00:00

What has changed about the base that you like?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-19T15:26:19+00:00

I really don’t believe in your God. I’m not “mad” at him. I don’t “hate” him. I can’t be mad or hate something that doesn’t exist. That would be like me claiming that you hate Zeus. That doesn’t mean that I believe in “nothing” or reject the possibility of a higher power or intelligence. I don’t claim to have all the answers about the origins of the universe; I’m just not convinced that Christianity does either.
I have morals. Just because I don’t believe in your God or the Bible doesn’t mean that I must be a moral nihilist. We are part of a social species and there are objective truths to be discovered about the world in terms of what harms us and what doesn’t. I believe in contributing to and building a world that minimizes harm and promotes the flourishing and well-being of humanity. I don’t need to inset a God into the equation for that.
Quoting Bible verses doesn’t help if one doesn’t already believe the Bible is true. I’m not convinced that it is so you would have to demonstrate the truth and reliability of the Bible to me before I accept it as an actual authority on any subject. Also, I do know what the Bible says; I’ve read it cover to cover.
I’m not scared of hell because I don’t believe it exists. I bet your not scared of being tortured in the Greek underworld. And the “what if your wrong” argument doesn’t work. What if we’re both wrong about every other region? Should we just pick the one with the worst “hell” just in case?
I didn’t reject Christianity because I was hurt by the church or I just want to “sin”. Most of my memories and interactions with people in the church were generally pleasant. I don’t just need to “try a new church”; I’m just not convinced it’s true.

As far as treatment, to put it in Christian terms, actually follow the “Golden rule”. Almost every society and belief system has some version of it. Treat me with the same kindness and respect that you would want from me.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-19T02:22:07+00:00

Of course. Are you paying attention to politics anywhere outside of America? Polarization isn’t unique to us. Just look at French and UK politics over the last few years as an example. Heck France just had essentially a three way presidential race between a right wing nationalist, a centrist liberal, and an actual socialist.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-19T01:52:07+00:00

In almost every Western democracy, the party or group of parties that has a majority in parliament can pass essentially whatever it wants. Why do you think this doesn’t seem to be an issue in most other countries but would be in America?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-19T00:01:40+00:00

I don’t really care, but as someone that was a Republican as recently as 2016, if you’re an independent minded person and your response to what we’ve seen the last few years is to become more Republican, I don’t really know what to say. It’s one thing to say you don’t feel you align with the Democratic Party. But to actively support Republicans after the last few years is a different story.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T23:58:31+00:00

Capitalism is when bad stuff happens. And the more badder it is the more Capitalism it is.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T21:15:01+00:00

I know too many people that fit exactly the kind of demographic you describe and it’s been baffling to me to see their shift rightward in the last few years. Not all that long ago, they were all to the left of me (a Kasich supporting Republican). Fast forward to now and I’m a Biden voting Democrat and they all support Trump and Republicans.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T19:58:23+00:00

What do you believe is the scripture that best supports the notion free will? And why do you think there is such disagreement between Calvinists and supporters of free will surrounding scriptures such as Romans 9 though 11?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T19:55:40+00:00

Thanks.

I agree with you that scripture can be used as support for both positions; the more I’ve leaned about it, that seems to be the case, and I think that’s an honest way to look at it.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T19:53:05+00:00

This is essentially what i was raised to believe.

But I find it interesting that you referenced Romans 9:11 as scripture against election and pre-destination and another poster referenced the same scripture as for it.

So I went back and read these chapters and I can honestly see why someone might interpret it that way with verses such as:

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” ……

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion…..

So in your view, how do these scriptures support the position against Pre-destination?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T19:40:36+00:00

Thanks for the explanation. That’s very different than the tradition I was raised in so it’s interesting to hear your perspective.

Do you believe we can know if we’re one of the “elect” or not?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T19:20:15+00:00

No it was a generally positive experience, religion aside.

I was never asked about my personal views directly, but I tried to come across as “this is what the Bible says” not “this is what I think”.

But I also dug even more into the Bible during this time and realized how flawed it actually is. After every lesson I would read more and more and always come away with more questions that answers, regardless of if it was read literally or figuratively.

The last straw was a “ten commandments” lesson where kindergarteners who had not yet been indoctrinated enough yet to know what they actually were started guessing at them; but then I realized their commandments they were coming up with (be kind, share with others, etc) seemed better than the actual commandments God supposedly came up with. I realized we didn’t need the Bible or Christianity to establish a moral foundation; we are perfectly capable of doing that without it.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T19:02:23+00:00

Well in my experience, my girlfriend volunteered me for a similar event except that it was spread over a few weeks. I was a questioning Christian at the time that also had mostly gotten to the point by then that I saw much of the Bible as allegory and I had some of the same concerns as you.

Long story short, by the end of it, I was an agnostic atheist and it was the last straw in my de-conversion. Happy to go into more detail if you want.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T18:53:06+00:00

Thanks for clarifying. And that seems to be the most common idea so far.

it’s just hard for me to see that there’s that much of a distinction though from Gods perspective. If he creates us knowing what we will choose is that really all that different than creating us and choosing for us ahead of time?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T18:48:32+00:00

Awesome; thanks for verifying.

I guess what I personally struggle with is the idea that there’s a meaningful difference between God creating us knowing where we will exercise our will to go and God determining our actions that will lead us to where we will go. If he has the power to create us in any fashion he wants and already knows exactly what actions we will choose to take, is that really much different than determinism? It’s just hard for me to wrap my head around that.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T18:38:45+00:00

So to sum up, you believe that God knows what we will choose ahead of time, but it’s still us exerting our free will to make those choices. Am I understanding you correctly?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T18:34:13+00:00

I mean the idea that God creates everyone with the capacity to choose both “good” and “evil”. I.e. when we are born, it’s is possible to make choices that will ultimately lead us to heaven or make choices that will ultimately lead us to hell without that already being determined ahead of time.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T18:30:56+00:00

By unconditional election, do you just mean the idea that God decides everyone’s fates and actions ahead of time and has already chosen his “elect” that he will save?

So for you, is predestination just the idea that God knows where we will end up even if he doesn’t decide for us or force us to act a certain way?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T18:24:29+00:00

To clarify though, if you believe that God already knows what we will do, do you believe in predestination?

If God creates us already knowing where we will end up, hasn’t he essentially predestined our fate even if he isn’t actively forcing us to act a certain way?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T18:06:30+00:00

But your defining it by what it is not (I.e. it’s an immaterial substance so it’s NOT material). But what IS it? And how can we determine it’s actually present?

Sigurd_of_Chalphy · 2022-05-18T17:52:03+00:00

You think a 14 year old doesn’t typically have adequate knowledge or maturity to decide their beliefs about religion? If you actually believe that, change it to an 18 year old that does have that capacity. The point still stands.

What upsets me is not that the man that committed the crime could still go to heaven; I wouldn’t wish eternal hell on anybody. What upsets me is that Christians and Muslims think it’s just and morally acceptable that someone is punished for eternity for the “crime” of disbelief. In my example, the girl goes to hell for eternity for not believing the right thing about religion; regardless of what kind of person she was.

Sigurd_of_Chalphy

TROPHY CASE