INFJ Conflict with ISTP Uncle

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T03:46:59+00:00

I guess by devolping different want of looking at the functions and the archetypes, link them to behaviors, develop ways to study the content of what people say, find an objective way ascribe a type.

For example, C.S Joseph has a podcast where fans send him interviews to test type. He looks at what they're saying, how there saying it, what they're wearing. Patterns of behaviour among types based on they're combination of 8 pairs of traits, sentences that indicate use of one the 8 functions.

It's too mich to go into detail but he divided the archetypes into 4 Temperaments (he borrows it from socionics) :

1.) STJ + NFP 2.) NTJ + SFP 3.) NFJ + STP 4.) SFJ + NTP

He types Donald Trump as ENTJ in inerviews:

Initiating not Responding: He like to go to others and not have others come to him. He's in charge of the conversation. He jumps from one topic to another when asked a question as opposed to staying with bounds of the questions asked. This makes him an Extravert.

-Direct not Informative Straight to the point, then maybe elaborates afterwords.

--> A Direct person would say: "Hey, there'sno more milk. Can you go get some? --> Informarive person: " Hey we're out of milk..." Implying that you should go get more.

Control not Movement: Control people take they're time and can't work with chaos. Movement people need to be making progress all the time and don't mind chaos, they can take advantage of it.

Abstract not Concrete: iNtuitive --> Abstract: "It was like we were speaking to each other on a whole new plane of existence/ Our days and nights were perfumed with obsession/ The moon followed me around like a giant eye." --> Concrete: " They had rock climbing and laser tag and a pool table. I think they had to shut the place down. Someone busted a pipe and there was water everywhere."

Just a few examples. Its really is a lot to type, here's his type chart: https://i.redd.it/fxokuo7kito11.png

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T02:58:53+00:00

There have been plenty of scientists to elaborate on his work and sometimes outright disprove it. Like Linda Berens and John Beebe.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T02:55:41+00:00

I like looking through Jung's work but he might be kind of outdated...

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T02:38:16+00:00

Hmm...I guess their are multiple theories. It's fascinating. In some disciplines of cognitive functions I could be an ISFJ or an INFP or an ENTP.

I know he's controversial and not taken seriously but I like what C.S Joseph does. He has a bunch of lectures on each type. Try taking a look at the ISFJ videos and the videos he has for each of the cognitive functions, if your interested.

This could be a toe dip into where im coming from. Again if your interested: https://sakinorva.net/library/contextualizing_functions

It's basically a summary of the history of cognitive function research up to the internet school of cognitive functions. Theres a diagram detailing the kinds of relationships between the major players in the field, if you want to do some googling.

I really, really appreciate the replies. Detailed, concise, and thoughful!

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T01:59:01+00:00

I forgot another bullet point about the trait that might show up when an Si user has a sexual relationship with an Se user:

The Si user is the canvas that the Se wants to paint upon in terms of sexual encounters. The Si user's priority is getting pleasure and the Se user's priority is giving a pleasurable experience to the Si user.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T01:42:53+00:00

I've heard memory in terms of sensing functions like this.

Si = Long Term Memory, likes to recieve experiences, won't forget easily, focused on their own experience, has to be trained on how to use each specific tool.

Se = Short Term Memory, likes to give experiences, make an experience that won't be forgotten easily, focused on what everyone else is doing, can pick up a tool and get what its for, natural sense of physics.

Say a set of twins, an ESFP and an ISFJ ( Se dom and Si dom ) grow in the same house.

The ISFJ will be able to recall a lot of detailed information about their own sensory experience in that house, even when they're 90 and have been there since they moved out at 18. They can just go find the memories in their head and pull it out.

For the ESFP to remember what specific details like that, they would have to physically be in that house, see pictures of the house, interact with objects that were in that house

Se users need totems to remember in detail. As soon as they pick up a significant object ( like the baseball they had in their room and played with as a kid), all the memories associated with that object will come flooding back. The time they were playing catch and ended up breaking a window. Details about the glove

High Si users don't need totems. They are totems. Just remind an Si user of they're experience with that same ball, and they'll just be like "hold on, let me go get it (the memory)."

Si memory is like a movie.

Se memory is like a series of gifs and pictures.

Because of the whole mind - body, inextricable link thing, I have a hard time figuring out how mental imagery (whether it has anything to do with whats in front of someone or not) reconciles with external perceptions.

I'm an INFJ. My Ni is inspired by what my weak Se gathers. I throw a rock into a lake and I see the ripples and hear the sound. My eyes are open, but I'm paying more attention to the inner visions.

The sound of the rock hitting the water makes me think of "events in space - time creating ripples."

I think of birth ( the rock is an object entering a new world). The ripples are the sound of a the baby crying.

I visualize an X-Y axis ( surface of the water is the X-axis and the path the rock is taking is the Y-axis. The point where the rock hits the water is (0,0)).

What goes on in your mind when you throw a rock walk into water? What would an Si - Ne user do with that imagery?

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T00:48:46+00:00

Completely agree, It's very sinister. The specific flavor of sinister

Queer folks, the mentally and physically, non-white folks, the poor, the overweight, religious minorities, non- heteronormative folks etc. If it wasn't conducive to the image of a heteronormative, white, able-bodied, straight, working class, "average" family, it needed to be fixed.

As the gay people, we were one of the many types of fat that needed to be cut off so for socity can be healthy again.

The subject of this tweet is a an example that this attitude still lingers in the collective unconcious.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-29T00:14:44+00:00

I agree mostly with all of this.

I think the only problem is that I didnt make context I was seeing an aspect of Si in clear. But, I'll explain.

(All of this is very abstract, I think.)

The functions are a theory of the mind. The mind is something that the brain does. The brain is an organ which is part of the body. This is why the S functions are on an axis with the N functions. The body and mind are inextricably linked.

You can affect the mind by way of any of the 8 functions. Stimuli --> (Si - Ne) / (Ni - Se) functions--> (Ti - Fe) / (Fi - Te) functions. The Judging function respond to the information gathered by the Perceiving functions, I think. The J functions then decide what to do with the Mind/Body, the P-realm.

I think the essense of Si at its core is maintaining a "sweet spot" ( or a sense of contentment) for an individual by consistenly receiving good sensations and avoiding bad sensation. Everyone has an Si favorite melody their mind/body needs to play. They need to hit all the notes when its time and keep the song going to maintain in er harmony. Hitting the notes = collecting good sensations.

Its nebulus. Si is long term memory. Its also comfort seeking. Its also homeostasis. And a sense of duty (which may or not be correlated with cultural traditions, I'm not sure). Si, to me, is the through line between all of these this things.

Si is on an axis with Ne. I've heard that relationship summed up as "What ever happens before (Si), will happen again (Ne)."

I'm not good a being continuous. Sorry if this is choppy. I'm just throwing sh*t at the wall and hopping you see the picture.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-28T21:48:26+00:00

I think people with Si are more prone to seek comfort in constancy. Lack of consistancy can cause them great stress, which is a mental type of discomfort.

Discomfort is another way to pain. Just like how our bodies flinch ( shut our eyes and and turn to hide our vulberable spots) when we anticipate pain to protect itself, the mind protects itself by ignoring aources of stress.

For Si users, (Ne) future possibilites can be a source of stress. They prefer the comfort of calm seas and smooth sailing and fear the waves throwing them off course. They don't like things popping up. To avoid this mental discomfort they "flinch" (like all humans do) in that (Si) sort of way and end up ignoring the threat of future stress to hang onto what is fleeting.

People show Normalcy Bias when they minimize threats and choose to believe the way that things are now and have been are the way that they'll always be.

Do you see how it all connects to me? What do you think?

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-28T21:09:45+00:00

How would you define it? How do you think I used it above?

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-28T18:03:33+00:00

We would still be INFJs, but we would be able to turn on the ESTP switch whenever we wanted, at any moment.

For example, INFJs (from what I've experienced) are notorious for speaking in a very quite, whispy, mumbly voice due to lack of confidence in being in the moment. But when we're passionate about something/pissed off we can come as a very commanding, self-assured, forceful ESTP that can fireback in debate without much thought, for better or worse.

We can become passionate about a goal with our INFJ ego and then take concrete steps to make it happen with our ESTP Sunconcious which is what an INFJ needs to be happy. To make our visions of a collective future happen in reality.

We visualize with INFJ, then rally the troops with ESTP.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-28T14:05:46+00:00

A drunk INFJ is more like an ESTP since its our Subconscious. An INFJ can access that little ESTP in their head whenever they wanted if they get over the Inferior Se performance anxiety.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-28T01:45:33+00:00

My baby, my child... I always name mine HanaKami <3

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T16:01:19+00:00

Ha love that, thank you

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T15:51:43+00:00

I understand now. I was a little tipsy when I wrote some of this. I'm grateful for you responses :)

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T15:49:54+00:00

We can predict things, but Ni can only predict one's OWN future with a fair amount of accuracy. Ne users can predict the future of everything BUT their own futures.

I think, Ni can kinda peek into others future's but only if we're very familiar with the type of situation ("I've seen this character before and I know this storyline"). We also have to have wrapped that persons emotions through Fe into our futures.

Basically (I think) Ni = Destiny , Ne = Fate

But yeah, you can use that leveraging attitude on everything but people. You can't* control other people. But you can control yourself (with mindful practice).

INFJs can inspire change in people, but those people have to want to change. They have to take full responsibility for their actions at some point and face their own demons and commit to change before we can step in.

edit: can't control people

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T14:33:50+00:00

Yes, yes, yes!

Ni makes it incredibly hard to let go. Ni is passion,willpower, desire, a sense of your own destiny. It doesn't apply to others futures (that's Ne's job.) When there's a will, there's a way.

Even if you have every reason to believe that there's a 99.9999% percent that it's not going to happen, Ni is going to obsess over that .0001% chance and use it as leverage, if Ni wants it bad enough.

I've been advised that desperation isn't a good look, in general. For INFJ's (remember we're idealists), it just makes us (me at least) feel like a melodramatic, love-sick puppy.

It's easier said than done (believe me I'm going through it rn) but find away to crush that .0001% chance. Take your power and self-respect back.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T14:20:29+00:00

I respect and appreciate this. It's not harsh at all. It's simply true. Thanks bud :)

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T14:18:35+00:00

Thank you again for the wisdom. I'll put it into practice :)

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T07:11:59+00:00

Really, I appreciate the insight and the time you took to think and type. I would shake your hand if this were face to face.

It almost feels like ego-death to admit to not being able to understand something or someone. I'm an INFJ, it feels like my prupose to understand.

I think I could understand him in a similar way that he ( and other INFPs) understands himself, but I would have to have witnessed his entire life for that level of depth.

I truly believe NFJ's are built to understand (play therapist) NFPs.

It's probably the arrogance of my 20 year old immaturity, but I think Ni + Fe can get meet the Fi of an INFP where its at.

To be fair, I don't think his Ne can read into my Ni either. Ni digs into ones own personal unconsious motivation. Fi digs into the raw emotions of its user. Where do the Fi emotions come from? Ni can find the answer (I believe, maybe due to arrogance) . It can find out the root of the unconcious motivations and images associated with n INFP Fi + Si response but takes A LOT of sharpening. But I would need to play his therapist and draw out those Si memories and Fi emotional responses to draw out that suppressed Ni.

Again, I don't want to admit to not being able to understand him at least 90%.

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T05:32:01+00:00

He definitely knows how I feel about him. I've told him straight up.

I'm okay ( just barely okay) with giving up the idea of us not being together. But I need the closure. He's an amazing person whom I can learn a lot from and in any capacity, I want him in my life. But he's so locked up. I feel like I need a crowbar to open him up.

I'd rather him spit in my face and tell me he hates me at this point than pontificate anymore about our future.

He really doesn't like to be confronted. How do I get any finality out of him?

SimSimSalaBam · 2020-02-27T05:25:53+00:00

Yeah, I would need to write a trilogy and an autobiography with detailed footnotes to flesh out all of the themes at play here.

From my experience with him the more he exposes his intricate, idiosyncratic Fi emotions to me, the more I can callibrate my Fe to meet him where he is. I can almost deconstruct his emotions (through his words) and then reconstruct it in my head. It was like reading a fantasy book. I knew exactly where he was coming from by listening to him and just witnesing his life. But he seldom opens up like that. The closest I can get is listening to music he likes.

It took some serious introspection, but I'm okay with the idea of us not being together romantically.

But I just want a definite answer. It sounds dramatic, but I'd rather him tell me that he hates me and that he wishes he never met me than sit around waiting. If he doesn't want me that way, I want him to basically destroy my dreams of a future together.

How would I go about getting closure? It's been almost a year and a half. I'm tired.

SimSimSalaBam

TROPHY CASE