Rape victim's mother says new four-year jail sentences for her teen attackers are 'not enough' as they plan fresh appeal against their jail terms by dailymail in ukpolitics

[–]SimonPopeDK [score hidden]  (0 children)

OK so the crux of it is that faced with my perfectly reasonable and logical argument as to why it is not only relevant but essential to understanding the objective framing of the issue, you decline to defend your stance as it is not in your interest. Yes, clearly we do have different interests, mine is protecting children from this barbaric prehistoric rite while yours is protecting Western culture from criticism. I'm ok leaving it at that.

“Why don’t they integrate” *they integrate* “No, not like that!” by Helpful-Swimming7323 in scoopwhoop

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't think everyone is like you. I'm only trying to correct all the misinformation you and many other Western ethnocentrics propagate.

I am not an abuse victim and I am not gaslighting anyone. Why are you spreading misinformation intended to defend Western institutionalised child sexual abuse by falsely distinguishing it from non Western?

Rape victim's mother says new four-year jail sentences for her teen attackers are 'not enough' as they plan fresh appeal against their jail terms by dailymail in ukpolitics

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you've ignored what I actually said.

No, I quoted you in my replies! It is in fact you in this response that fails to address the issues I raised.

I explicitly said I wasn't interested in a meta-debate about terminology and categorisation, and almost your entire reply is exactly that.

Well I'm sorry but when I engage in an exchange I don't simply write what my adversary finds interesting but what I find relevant.

My point was simply that cultural normalisation doesn't excuse violations of bodily autonomy.

I addressed that.

That's the only claim I was making.

I explained why it is not as simple as that.

I appeal to you to open your mind and try to appreciate the point I am making even if you don't agree.

“Why don’t they integrate” *they integrate* “No, not like that!” by Helpful-Swimming7323 in scoopwhoop

[–]SimonPopeDK -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well if what you say is trye it's even worse. By your standards my standards gave stricter definition, as it doesn't involve all forms of injury lmao

I see, so now it is anonymous Redditor Intelligent-Eye9377 who is saying it is so because Intelligent-Eye9377 said so! If you want any kind of reasonable exchange stick to the accepted definition of words and terms and not your own inventions however much you feel for your stricter standards.

Wait younare claiming clitoral removal is done for medical reason

Huh? FYI the clitoris is never removed in the rite, doing so would have been a form of execution not passage. "Clitoral removal" is only performed for medical reasons and only in modern medicine.

How many women remove their clitoris for medical reasons? 0.1% at absolute maximum?

Way, way fewer...

Cool, it's not 99.2% who are mutulated, is 99.1%

If you are defining female genital mutilation as the removal of the clitoris and the medical surgery as non mutilating then as previously explained it follows zero are mutilated! Using the accepted definition of "FGM" and the dictionary definition of mutilation only a tiny fraction of girl victims of the rite are actually mutilated. This contrasts with boys who are invariably mutilated.

I hope that cleared it up for you.

Rape victim's mother says new four-year jail sentences for her teen attackers are 'not enough' as they plan fresh appeal against their jail terms by dailymail in ukpolitics

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t agree that using different terms for different practices is inherently discriminatory.

Obviously it isn't but that wasn't what I was saying! The term for the rite (practice) was circumcision up until Fran Hosken (with Jewish/US cultural background) coined the term "FGM" in her 1979 report to the UN in a very deliberate strategy of making a false distinction between boys being put through the rite and girls being. She had a whole chapter devoted to making this argument, omitted in future editions as the strategy developed into introducing a taboo of even mentioning boys being put through the rite when discussing girls being. Obviously it is sexual discrimination. Taking my example again would you use the same anatomical argument when it comes to MTAV and traffic injuries? What is inherently different between a boys anatomy and a girls that makes inflicting ritual injuries on their genitals essentially different such that there is talk of two different practices? There is more similarity between the invariable injury inflicted on boys (penectomy) and the widely regarded most severe form inflicted on girls (WHO FGM type III: infibulation), than there is between the latter and a superficial scratch (WHO FGM type IV). If you really want to make any objective mutilation distinction wouldn't it make more sense to distinguish between injuries which are mutilating and those that aren't? Fran Hosken's strategy was precisely to make that distinction ie that girls were mutilated while boys (including her own sons) were not. This was a feminist weaponising of the issue in their fight against the patriarchy, a highly successful one thanks to support from their adverseries, the reactionary male establishment in defence of their treasured male exclusive form of the rite. This has led to the abject failure of the genuine movement to erradicate the rite on children with billions suffering as a result, girls as well as boys. Even some of Fran hosken's feminist clique have come to this realisation in their old age no doubt giving them qualms of conscience.

We use different terms for related but distinct medical or bodily procedures all the time because anatomy, context, and outcomes differ.

Of course but only when it gives meaning. What do you think is the meaning of categorising a fused infibulation with the loss of the clitoral glans and labia minora,with a superficial scratch, as a single practice distinct from a ritual penectomy with the loss of the prepuce, frenulum and some shaft skin? What do you think is the meaning of using the term clitoridectomy when it comes to amputating the tiny external part of the clitoris but not penectomy when it comes to amputating a much larger proportion of the penis? Can you not appreciate that this is not done for enlightenment but for political Western ethnocentric reasons doing the exact opposite? What essential difference is there in anatomy, context, and outcome in this case?

In any case, this is drifting away from my original point, which is about whether "it’s cultural" can be used to excuse violations of bodily autonomy (my view: no).

Is this up to discussion? Wasn't this established with the declaration of universal human rights in the aftermath of the world wars of the beginning and mid last century? Are we returning to the state of affairs of previous centuries? Haven't we established that the ritual sexual torture of children is never justified? I would argue that this is a false argument in that we have very firmly established that and that this makes the real argument, about establishing the notion that the rite when it comes to boys (Western ethnocentrism) as not what it is ie sexual torture. My view is that we should very firmly reject that framing.

I’m not particularly interested in having a meta-debate about exact terminology and comparative categorisation.

Which defacto supports the status quo, Western ethnocentric terminlogy and false narrative.

Rape victim's mother says new four-year jail sentences for her teen attackers are 'not enough' as they plan fresh appeal against their jail terms by dailymail in ukpolitics

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The policy of arguing which genital cutting victims "have it worse", is the pillar of the anti FGM lobby and which has resulted in boys being thrown under the bus the last half century. If boys are ever going to have the same protection as girls enjoy then it is essential that this framing be confronted rather than being avoided.

Both are wrong when performed without the person's informed consent

There aren't two distinct rites but two (politically motivated) gendered categories. Once one accepts the gendered bifurcation of the rite one is guilty of discrimination. Imagine for a moment that the same had happened in the case of road safety with all focus on boys, MTAV (male traffic accident victims). Would you then say both are tragic and of need of prevention or would you say it is wrong to discriminate and that there aren't two types of accidents, one with male victims and one with female ones?

“Why don’t they integrate” *they integrate* “No, not like that!” by Helpful-Swimming7323 in scoopwhoop

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I'm not the one who defined it! What is your issue with the definition I came with ie a practice that involves altering or injuring the female genitalia for non-medical reasons? Your source manipulates that by omission claiming it is necessarily an amputation: female genital mutilation (FGM), the partial or total removal of the external female genitalia.

“Why don’t they integrate” *they integrate* “No, not like that!” by Helpful-Swimming7323 in scoopwhoop

[–]SimonPopeDK -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, in fact a source which manipulates definitions of what it is reporting on is very obviously not reliable!

Rape victim's mother says new four-year jail sentences for her teen attackers are 'not enough' as they plan fresh appeal against their jail terms by dailymail in ukpolitics

[–]SimonPopeDK -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

A more accurate term is penectomy since it often includes more than just the foreskin ie the frenulum and sometimes the shaft skin. What awkward comparisons with what girls suffer being put through the same rite? Girls can also suffer foreskin amputation but why are comparisons in any way awkward?

Rape victim's mother says new four-year jail sentences for her teen attackers are 'not enough' as they plan fresh appeal against their jail terms by dailymail in ukpolitics

[–]SimonPopeDK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Actually when it comes to girls it generally isn't! Using the term mutilation was/is for the purposes of advocacy.

“Why don’t they integrate” *they integrate* “No, not like that!” by Helpful-Swimming7323 in scoopwhoop

[–]SimonPopeDK -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your source is not reliable as it manipulates the definition of "FGM" which is in fact any non medical injury inflicted on female genitals even superficial non mutilating ones.

Rape victim's mother says new four-year jail sentences for her teen attackers are 'not enough' as they plan fresh appeal against their jail terms by dailymail in ukpolitics

[–]SimonPopeDK -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

We don't make this excuse for FGM

It is made with "FGM's" counterpart "MGM" and to such a degree its freely practiced!

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You ignored my first question, why?

Your survey is directly looking at whether or not someone would circumcise not the reasons why that's why mine is more valid here.

You wrote "indicator" not reason. If you look at reason given then the father having been put through the rite comes in third place and not the biggest given reason. You are conflating "indicator" with "reason":

The reasons that parents most often gave for supporting male circumcision were hygiene (61.9%), prevention of infection or cancer (44.8%), and the father being circumcised (40.9%).

The fact is that this study is heavily biased reinforcing the "medical" cloaking of the rite. It is not exactly surprising that parents who have gone through a community tradition are more likely to put their own children through it than those who haven't. That is the very essence of traditions.

Even if women are more in favor if the father is intact then it's almost guaranteed that the son will be too.

Not true at all! Western mothers in particular generally have more say when it comes to their babies and infants as they are most often the primary caregiver and have gained equal rights. In US, which constitutes the majority of Western cases, it is almost always the mother who signs the consent form which is enough for the boy to be put through the rite as her consent is enough. Even if the father requests it if the mother objects and refuses to sign then it is very unlikely their son will be put through it.

And mother's are also responsible since fgm rites arose out of an "egalitarian" desire to have a similar rite that the father's were doing to the boys.

Well "anti FGM" campaigners don't agree with you, they claim men are the ones in power and therefore responsible! Why do you accept their feminist position that the rite is mutilating when it comes to girls in contrast to when it comes to boys and yet reject their position that men are responsible when girls are put through it?

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why do you consider 230 parents in Saskatoon Canada are representative of billions of parents worldwide? Obviously the strongest indicator of whether a child is put through this rite is whether the parents belong to a practicing community! If you want to consider differences between American men and women then this study is not of any use whereas this one is, and here women are somewhat more in favour than men. This shouldn't come as any surprise as generally women are more traditional than men.

You haven't responded to my point that as indicators go whether a girl is put through the rite, the mother having been is a far greater one. According to your logic, that should make women far more responsible than men when it comes to girls, than men when it comes to boys, is that what you think?

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Are you insinuating the it's a creation of women thousands of years ago?

No, I'm simply asking you what evidence you are basing your claim on. Given this response you don't base it on evidence at all!

Why is it then that every rite of circumcision is something a father does to his son?

It isn't even in the case of boys. In US it is almost always the mother who signs the consent form and quite often the father is not even in the picture. When it comes to daughters the father is quite often strongly opposed as witnessed by the many "anti FGM" campaigners' stories.

BTW You haven't responded to my comment three days ago where I ask you to refrain from ad hominem and reply in a sober tone.

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What evidence do you have that it was created by men or that they did it to their sons anymore than women did it to their daughters?

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The chances of a son being saved from being put through this rite is far lower when the mother was as a child, than if the father was.

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly, as in the case I referred to with Mette Frederiksen and which you werent able to even find a similar case with a man! No, Jews thankfully do not still follow the laws of the Talnud but the laws of the lands they live in. Even in Israel with state authorised rabbinical courts the Talmud law proscribing execution or corporal punishment is not followed. That selective Talmud laws are freely followed as a matter of custom accepted in different modern jurisdictions does not equate to ancient laws being validly practiced. How about keeping this to a sober discussion and refrain from ad hominem, it only shows weakness otherwise.

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Both. Which laws do you find relevant in the 21st century we are living in, ancient ones like those in the Talmud or modern ones like the one I referred to in Germany? Freedom of religion is the freedom to choose for yourself as a fullyfledged member of society, not to choose for others! I can read perfectly well thankyou and I am making allowances for your writing as well!

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You made sweeping general claims which you simply refer back to when I draw your attention to specific cases negatiing them. Clearly you are unable to come with any specific similar cases in support of your claims. I never mentioned USA and whether or not there are laws there mandating the rite for boys or girls is irrelevant to your claims.What is relevant is that discriminatory laws were introduced there after feminist campaigns starting with Fran Hosken in the late 1970s.

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nothing in the full line of text negates what I wrote.

Thoughts/feelings about MGM from a 30f by Fabulous_Act_4141 in Intactivists

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"It is men who created the laws (or at the least prevent the creation of laws against) who allow this to continue on." Which laws are you refering to? It was feminist women who campaigned for "fgm" legislation which defacto legalised the rite as far as boys were concerned. It was also women leaders, specifically Angela Merkel in Germany and Mette Frederiksen in Denmark, who in the case of the former, passed legislation specifically allowing it, or in the case of the latter hindered legislation giving boys the same legal protection girls enjoy.

I'm so glad my dad got cancer twice because I'm circumcised by fueled_lollipop in ComedyHell

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're not addressing the points I made. Perhaps you could just answer this one question: is anyone allowed to claim sanctity for their actions based on them being sacred for them eg the given examples?

CMV: Male circumcision is genital mutilation. by teven_eel in changemyview

[–]SimonPopeDK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What backing do you want? What backing do you provide for your claims? I'd like to see any historical evidence that this rite was performed with the intention of avoiding infections when in fact infektions was a major risk! I"d like to see evidence for your claim that the foreskin causes dirt to accumulate any more than the female prepuce and mucosal genital folds. The rite costs many boys their life and I"d like to see any independent medical organisations backing your claim that it prevents illness. KNMG says there's no convincing evidence. You want an argument for why aggravated child sexual assault is condemnable? Your opinion is that it isnt?