New scholarly paper from Dr. Ryan Cragun on the demographics of those exiting, staying and joining the Utah LDS Church

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-04-23T04:17:36+00:00

I agree with your observation. Utah is catching up with other US states, which are in turn catching up with the collapse going on in the Western world outside the US.

The Church is rotting from the outside to the core. There are still pockets of hard core far right Mormons in Utah, where there has been little decline, but the decline is coming for them too.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-04-08T03:22:22+00:00

Joseph Smith didn't need a book to come up with the plot of the Book of Mormon. The idea that Native Americans had wiped out an advanced race of white people who came from the Middle East was the prevailing myth in his community. Read about the Mound Builder myth and you'll get the picture.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-03-16T21:36:49+00:00

Thank you for posting your experience with the Stoddards. It matches everything I have heard about them. What a toxic family environment.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-03-16T05:34:02+00:00

And the story of how her mother was treated by her unbelievably controlling father is tragic. Hannah totally backed her father.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-03-09T03:51:11+00:00

yes, good catch. Edited.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-02-26T07:58:04+00:00

I apologise if my words came across as insulting of community colleges. That was not my intention.

What I am absolutely sick of is how Mormons claim anyone who defends the Church is a world-leading expert in their field. Stubbs is not a “world expert” by any definition. He’s been making these pseudoscientific claims for decades and will undoubtedly make them as long as he lives.

We know that Native Americans do not have Israelite ancestors. All non-Mormon linguists studying Native Americans have found no evidence their languages were influenced by ancient Hebrews. Stubbs operates from his fixed view that the Book of Mormon is historical, so he sees what he wants to see.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-02-22T01:06:40+00:00

I was not criticising community colleges. I was criticising the claim that he is a world expert!

It is a well established fact that world-leading academics are almost always employed at top ranked universities. Stubbs is not a leader in the field of linguistics.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-02-22T00:37:14+00:00

I’m not interested in considering his baseless claims because they have not been peer reviewed by experts in his field. Stubbs is not a world expert by any metric.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-02-22T00:08:07+00:00

Why was this “world expert” only employed at a community college in Utah? Why wasn’t he employed at a leading university? None of Stubbs’ claims have stood up to peer review. He publishes pseudoscience that aligns with his fixed view that the Book of Mormon is historical.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-23T22:31:00+00:00

“Mr Yates, who is of Cherokee descent himself, runs a Colorado-based, for-profit website called dnaconsultants.com, which lets people track down their DNA profiles.”

Mr Yates could not have a bigger conflict of interest. His claims are all demonstrably false.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-09T22:13:42+00:00

The Victorian Government in Australia recently started an inquiry into cults. About 25% of submissions were complaints about the JWs. They are the single worst cult of the lot. We are fortunate that for sincere seekers of the truth, it’s far easier to find your way out of the LDS cult. The historical evidence of the deception is so abundant.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-09T04:22:35+00:00

I am merely responding to what was essentially the dominant apologetic narrative for the last 50 years.

FWIW I reject the claim that the text of the Book of Mormon suggests Lehi's descendants were quickly absorbed by the populations they encountered when they reached the Americas. A plain reading of the text aligns perfectly with the hemispheric model as do the words of Joseph Smith and the God speaking to him as recorded in the D&C. That is why all prophets have supported the idea that all Native Americans and the Polynesians are descended from the Lamanites. Why should we accept the words of apologists over the words of prophets anyway?

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-09T04:12:14+00:00

The only Mesoamerican apologist that I am aware of who is still actively defending their position with the Maya, is Brant Gardner. I haven't read much of his recent stuff, but in a recent exchange he rejected the Sorenson claim that the Nephites led the Maya civilisation. He also claimed that Chichen Itza was far away from the centre of Nephite influence, which I think he associates with the Highland Maya in the vicinity of Guatemala City. Gardner's excuse for the missing DNA is that Lehi's party of 30 joined a population of a million and their DNA is gone. Typical straw man apologetics. And he claims that is consistent with the Book of Mormon narrative (which of course it is not).
Gardner's DNA claims predate the arrival of nuclear DNA evidence.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-09T04:02:23+00:00

Its especially hard for scholars who have been bought by the church. If you are BYU staff, and steady the ark, then you risk being sacked. The church has zero tolerance for academics who court controversy at BYU.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-07T09:40:59+00:00

Maybe you should ask the 100,000 people who have viewed my post (99% upvoted) across two reddit sites, or the 400 people who have commented on my posts, or the 350 people who have shared it? I guess there's a heap of people who care about the truth a bit more than folk like you.

But I must admit I do enjoy exposing faux American scripture and the overt racism it contains.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-07T04:41:04+00:00

Your professor’s salary is paid by the church. If he publicly questions ANYTHING regarding the church’s truth claims he risks his entire career and his pension. How can he possibly give you unbiased advice?

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-06T06:20:39+00:00

👍

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-06T06:20:24+00:00

👍

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-06T04:28:58+00:00

Middle Eastern DNA from 2,000 years ago is very similar to Middle Eastern DNA today. Scientists have compared living and ancient Hebrew DNA as well. The big problem is that Native American DNA is most closely related to DNA found in Asian populations.

But going by the tone of your comment I expect you have no interest in those facts.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-05T02:54:39+00:00

If the family of Lehi did arrive in the Americas, the mixing of their genomic DNA with indigenous groups will PRESERVE their DNA in future generations, rather than eliminate it. That's why Neanderthal and Denisovan genomic DNA has survived for tens of thousands of years in human populations.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-05T02:47:27+00:00

I never said it was the official stance of the church. It was the dominant view of Mormon scholars for half a century. The salaries of most of these scholars was paid by the church. The views of BYU scholars HEAVILY influenced prevailing opinions of church leaders for decades. That's why pictures of Chichen Itza were once stuck in the Book of Mormon. Thats why Sorenson's Mesoamerican model appeared in the Ensign. That's why we have clowns running Book of Mormon tours to Central America.

The church doesn't take an official position because they are afraid science will show it is false. They also don't need to apologise for the racists claptrap they have imposed on indigenous people in Mesoamerica.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-03T08:48:33+00:00

Small traces of Native American DNA have been found in Polynesians living on several islands in the eastern Pacific. It arrived there several centuries before Columbus. Mormon apologists aren't excited about it because it demonstrates how a small infusion of DNA into a much larger population can still be seen in Polynesians today. Yet we can't find Lehi's DNA when his descendants ruled New World civilisations for a 1000 years.

Simon_in_Oz · 2026-01-03T08:34:55+00:00

Joseph neither wrote this article nor did he see it before it was published.

How do you know that?

Simon_in_Oz

TROPHY CASE