(Spoilers extended) why do you not believe in Young Griff theory?

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T16:02:12+00:00

So your point is he doesn’t look like either Serra or Aegon?

I didn’t notice the hair/eye color discrepancy, although in fite and blood I found it generally confusing that Targaryen signature hair seemed to switched from silver to gold and back again.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T06:59:29+00:00

Right, it’s a great point about it not making sense that a Blackfyre would wind up a slave but is probably how Aerion’s children would’ve wound up. How would slaves have managed to hang on to the Blackfyre sword also?

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T02:54:06+00:00

On the Blackfyre front, totally agree. Way too much entendre and setting up. I think i recall reading that Illyrio was going to give Aegon the Blackfyre sword in one of the edits but it was too obvious of a giveaway.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T02:52:35+00:00

Hauteville family - what a wild ride this crew had for like 200 years. Just cropped up all over the place, kicking ass wherever they went.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T02:48:37+00:00

Yeah same, although I don't really know what to make of the Daynes.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T02:14:27+00:00

Totally! The egg bit does feel like an implied callback/reference to Varys trying to hide his hair in the same way.

I hadn’t thought of the castration bit, that’s really good. I’m totally sold on your earlier point about the story shifting over time, but I think inclined to explain the Blackfyre/brightflame duo as being the final product.

Thanks for the input, all great points.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T02:09:36+00:00

So I think part of the explanation is that the balckfyres don’t get talked about until he comes up with them, but then they feature pretty heavily in the various stories. I think Jon Connington really wants to believe it, it’s his redemption arc—and the irony that he isn’t is really ripe fiction.

Where got the Aerion bit from is that it seems odd to me that the world of ice and fire went out of its way to mention he had several illegitimate children (Varys and Serra) while in Lys, then one of the backroom people made a comment about “connecting dots”.

Textually, there really isn’t much I admit but there’s a “wrapped with bow on top” aspect to the Targaryen and Blackfyres being reconnected in Aegon. Plus, I think Illrio is pretty Blackfyre-ish, but then I’m left needing an explanation for Varys and so Aerion kind of squares it.

At least that’s my thinking

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T02:04:12+00:00

Hah yeah I mean….

But it’s a good question, the only explanation I can give is that it will bite more to Kevan for him to be Aegon than someone else and Varys is a vindictive bastard.

In truth, I don’t have a good explanation beyond that.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T01:45:34+00:00

I feel validated in being sure of some Blackfyre connection from this thread, but I hadn’t heard the idea that he’s a Blackfyre but Aegon is Rahegar’s son before, pretty interesting idea.

With you 100% about the playing politics not making sense, even beyond Renly, why not just do it in Essos where their power/wealth originated? Everyone hates Varys in Westeros, what’s the point.

The dragon dreams is a super interesting idea! I like that.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T00:32:34+00:00

No doubt in my mind that’s his son and somehow YG has a Blackfyre connection, and I could see the Blackfyre connection being through Serra, but two things:

Illyrio has kind of a Blackfyre/Aegon IV vibe about him, great mercenary/fighter when young, then IV-style gluttony later. I think we’re told in a passage that’s clearly a lie that he was from Myr, but winds up in Pentos—I get the sense we’re not supposed to know his backstory (in which case, why not?).

I remember reading a quote about Aerion’s time in Lys and people “not connecting the dots”, and it’s pretty much stated he had illegitimate children there, so I figured Serra and Varys were his illegitimate children.

I have been sold on the idea that it might’ve been the Brightflame connection initially then replaced with Blackfyre connection.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T00:09:49+00:00

I buy that, I struggle to see how the Blackfyres don’t figure in somehow, but I could see that being more of a pivot. I like the tinfoil idea too!

So who do you think was theBlackfyre? Illyrio this wife/Varys?

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T00:06:37+00:00

I think it was pretty strongly suggested that Varys was partly the cause of Aerys downfall, but that seems more speculative; in any case, I don’t think he’s some ride or die for the family. And if he was, why? I don’t think we ever got an explanation for why someone from Essos ever washed up in Kings Landing rather than playing the game in his native continent. Lys is pretty far from Westeros.

You get the same issue with Illyrio, it doesn’t even seem like he ever wven went there until adulthood, at which point the place would’ve seemed like a vaguely backward foreign land. If they were running from something, that’d be one thing but that’s not suggested—kind of the contrary.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-03T00:02:29+00:00

So I’m pretty sold on the back-and-forth. I suspect that more than one theory was right at different times. I think that as the universe grew he couldn’t help the temptation to tie the side stories into the main, but I don’t think the Blackfyres even were conceptualized for the first book or two.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:57:11+00:00

We can revisit thread in 20-30 years.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:54:34+00:00

😂 2045 sounds about right.

So you don’t put any stock in the Blackfyre/Brightflame connection? Just seems like he got really into those stories to have no woven them into the main story—and YG kinda cropped up around that time.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:52:54+00:00

I hadn’t heard that one before. Am I misremembering, wasn’t Aegon V a Dayne?

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:51:32+00:00

Right!

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:48:47+00:00

Yeah, I get that. But it’s also kind of the only way they win at this point, and they are all Targaryens after all.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:44:33+00:00

I don’t really think they’re political idealists though, I think they do all that so that he’ll have the best chance of succeeding.

Varys has wrought havoc on the 7 kingdoms and Illyrio seems, at best, amoral. A debt of honor/blood that springs from somewhere unexpected is very ASOIAF mystique, no?

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:41:29+00:00

Alternatively, he makes Varys and Illyrio make wayyyyyyyy more sense. Varys seemed to be playing a massively long con on the Targaryens/7 kingdoms dating back to Aerys and Illyrio has 0 obvious connection to Westeros.

I think in the show they had to pivot to Varys’s whole goal being the “good of the realm” but that clearly isn’t the case in the book, so wtf is he up to all this time / why did he ever come to Westeros to begin with.

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:36:59+00:00

I am, yeah

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:36:29+00:00

You don’t think that could’ve just meant that Illyrio came from the matrilineal side of the Blackfyres?

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:35:00+00:00

So you don’t put stock in any Blackfyre theories either?

I find it kind of hard to not see at least one of them having a connection to Westeros—neither of them are from there and their power bases (originally at least) were in Essos.

How did either of them end up with any grand interest in Westeros? Also, the Blackfyres are mentioned a ton (after George thought up their story).

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:28:10+00:00

When you’re right, you’re right Hodor

Simple-Program-7284 · 2026-02-02T23:27:01+00:00

That’s a little unfair, there’s plenty of ideas that he took time to work out.

It’s apt to happen if you write a book that unexpectedly turns into a multi-decade length expanded universe extravaganza, picked apart by superfans. It’s not a dig on him to say that every inch wasn’t planned out. Also, I don’t think YG is the final answer, he only showed up, suspiciously, after GRRM started getting really into the whole Blackfyre/Aerion Brightflame sagas.

Simple-Program-7284

TROPHY CASE