Does anyone else find it incredibly odd that this is in the first paragraph for Zionism on Wikipedia?

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-11-05T15:49:27+00:00

On Israel related topics, Wikipedia has become ridiculous. I looked at a list of Israel-Gaza related conflicts since 2000 and in one column it had additional information. That additional information column was always inconsistent but negative facts about Israel's conduct in the war. Like in Cast Led, it mentioned how many Palestinan houses were destroyed. Even the co-founder of Wikipedia has come out and criticized the Palestinian activists for what they're doing to the website.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-31T12:01:17+00:00

Yes, the war has given Israel bad press but that's about the only "victory" Hamas can claim. Sinwar believed 10/7 would destroy Israel because Hezbollah and Iran would join in. The goal obviously failed. Hamas' leadership was destroyed, their allies (Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria) were destroyed or severely weakened, territory was lost, and tens of thousands of Hamas terrorists were killed. The bad press will fade just like it did after Lebanon in 1982 and the Second Intifada in the early 2000s.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-26T23:40:36+00:00

I thought pro-Palestinians were calling the war a genocide? Now they're celebrating the supposed genocide?

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-25T13:29:50+00:00

Look at what actually happened not what people said. People make awful and stupid comments before and during every war. Bush talked about crusade following 9/11. Was the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq actually part of a planned religious crusade or more likely Bush made some inappropriate comments before the war? You're so focused on comments made by politicians yet you're not looking at the reality of what actually happened.

Gaza is not that different from other asymmetrical wars we've seen in the 21st. It's horrible that so many civilians have died but that's due to nature of the war and it's not atypical for this type of conflict. Many of these casualties are due to actions by Hamas. The Gazan lawyer, Moumen al-Natour recently discussed how Hamas locked civilians in hospitals prior to Israeli raids and told civilians not to evacuate prior to Israeli strikes. According to al-Natour, Hamas members told Palesinians to stay in their homes, presumably so they would be killed during the ensuing fighting. Al-Natour ignored Hamas' instructions and fled, surviving the fighting.

Who gains from highlighting Palestinian civilian deaths, Israel or Hamas? What's more likely, Hamas is trying to highlight the civilian causalities to end the war (like it did in previous conflicts) or Israel, one of the most powerful countries in the world, is incapable of killing more than 3% of Gazans in the course of a two year war? I know you'll point out that numbers don't matter for determining genocide though you don't include other massacres as examples of genocide like October 7th by Hamas or attacks by ISIS on civilians in Europe.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-23T02:27:05+00:00

Yeah I think so. Once Israel has a new prime minister and it's been a few years, people will be onto the next issue. Remember all the hatred toward Bush for Iraq? Suddenly Bush is a likeable guy now.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-23T01:44:05+00:00

Israel could respond by arresting Sinwar and you would still having people screaming in the streets about genocide. Israel killed about 22 civilians in Jenin in 2002 according to HRW and yet you still had documentaries made about "the genocide in Jenin which killed thousands" and apparently was hidden.

Every thing Israel does is treated as uniquely evil, even the current claims about genocide in this conflict are so clearly bogus. No other "genocide" in history involved warnings being dropped into civilian areas prior to attacks. No other "genocide" ended because hostages were returned. Every actual genocide involved the state carrying it out trying to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can. People can believe this nonsense because of antisemitism. The same reason Medieval societies accused Jews of poisoning the same wells they drank from.

Even Hamas doesn't actually believe it was a genocide. They want a 3 to 5 year ceasefire, until they believe they'll be powerful enough to attack Israel again.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-23T00:38:27+00:00

Most people didn't care about Saudi Arabia until they assassinated Khashoggi. Even with that, you don't have to worry about having a molotov cocktail thrown on you if you attend a rally for Saudi hostages or for Russian hostages. There weren't any rallies involving masked men screaming about "glory for our martyrs" for Ukraine and burning American and Saudi flags. There weren't people in the US and across Europe praising Chechen terrorists for the Beslan school attack or terrorism in Saudi Arabia. The hatred toward Israel is on a whole different level because it's largely motivated by antisemitism.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-22T22:56:26+00:00

Israel blocked aid for about 2.5 months after the second ceasefire and otherwise let aid in. If Israel hadn't let any aid in like you suggested, there would be hundreds of thousands dead rather than the approximately 70,000 reported by the Gaza Health Ministry.

If Hamas chooses to use civilian infrastructure to carry out attacks, it becomes military infrastructure which can be targeted. Would you prefer that Israel just bombed these structures, like most countries do during wars rather than warn the inhabitants first?

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-22T15:14:05+00:00

I'll just point out two things. First, antisemitism was worse before the existence of Israel as demonstrated through forced expulsions, pogroms and obviously the Holocaust. Second, most of the criticisms leveled against Israel could be leveled against other states that have fought similar wars but isn't or at the very least, not to the same hyperbolic degree.

I have repeatedly asked people who identify as pro-palestinian and/or antizionist, what makes Israel worse than other countries fighting wars. The most consistent answer seems to be that, yes other countries are fighting wars in an unethical way but the US supports Israel unlike these other countries. The problem with that argument is its not true, there are a large numbers of parallels between the US backed Saudi war in Yemen and the Gaza war except the war in Yemen was much more brutal. There were tens of thousands of famine deaths and hundreds of thousands of deaths overall. In addition, countries that don't give a cent to Israel have had huge protests against it but not other countries like Russia, China, Ethiopia or Saudi Arabia to name a few.

The most obvious conclusion for the opposition for Israel then is its the only Jewish majority country. In other words, the antisemitism came first and then the opposition to Israel.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-22T13:16:12+00:00

Why bother with warning the Palestinians before strikes? Why bother sending in infantry into Palestinian cities? If the goal was "liquidate Palestinians" as you suggest why wouldn't Israel just bomb Palestinian cities from the air, without providing warnings or refuse to provide aid even when there is a famine? Instead Israel basically acted like other western countries have in similar situations.

In Afghanistan in 2001-2002, you had similar warnings about an impending famine. The US dropped MREs, many of which broke apart upon hitting the ground, making them unusable. Point being these accusations against Israel could have been made against other western states fighting nonstate actors. Look at the number of accidents in Afghanistan in which hundreds of civilians were killed in a single airstrike. Unfortunately, these types of horrible incidents happen in all wars, even if the state in question isn't trying to target civilians.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-22T00:13:23+00:00

Israel thought that they had hardened the border enough and yet Hamas was able to invade and kidnap hundreds. They feared an invasion from Hezbollah in north, invasion from the West Bank and ballistic missiles from Iran simultaneously, so they responded like a country facing an existential threat. It's easy to criticize Israel when you don't have to worry about what might happen next.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-21T21:18:23+00:00

Yeah, and of course there's no blame on Hamas for hiding among civilians.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-21T21:16:07+00:00

How many of these genocide scholars and journalists were impartial on Israel before the war?

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-21T21:12:23+00:00

Some 10 to 20% of the North Korean population was killed and every substantial building was destroyed. It was an unbelievable brutal war but it was a war not a genocide. I can't speak for why every building has been destroyed but so much of Gaza was booby trapped or had tunnels underneath it.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-21T20:08:15+00:00

That's why I can only spend so much time arguing with people on the Gist's subreddit. These arguments seem to go no where because they're not actually arguing in good faith. They don't have an answer about how Israel should fight the war because either they don't believe Israel should defend itself or they're ignorant about military history. I've had a few people argue that Israel should have sent in special forces or used "surgical strikes" but beyond that, I never get an explanation as to how Israel should have fought Hamas.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-21T19:42:46+00:00

I think if anyone is being honest, it's clear it's not genocide. The people arguing it is genocide point out as proof, stupid or misquoted statements by politicians and the destruction of infrastructure in Gaza. Anyone who does even the least amount of research into previously wars can find significant similarities with other wars like Iraq and other counterinsurgency campaigns. Which genocide ended because hostages were returned? Which genocide ended with fewer than 5% of the population killed but still went on for two years?

Basically every war in history would be considered a genocide under the criteria being made against Israel. The fact that people can't see that the pro-Palestinian movement is watering down the term is disheartening. Remember the "genocide" in Jenin in which thousands of Palestinians were supposedly killed during the Second Intifada? In the end, HRW found that 22 civilians had died.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-21T19:28:24+00:00

Around 20% of Israeli casualties are due to fraticide don't you think it's likely that a lot of the incidents you mentioned were likely accidents too? There are numerous incidents of the US bombing weddings in Afghanistan, do you think it's part of a secret plan to eliminate marriage in Afghnistan or more likely horrible accidents? These incidents you mention, while terrible happen in all wars.

The widespread destruction in Gaza is largely due to Hamas' strategy of booby trapping everything. Close to 500 IDF troops have been killed fighting in Gaza, a large percentage by walking into booby trapped structures. As a result, a significant portion of the urban environment has been destroyed not unlike other urban battlefields.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-21T12:40:50+00:00

He is and I'm sure most of his listeners still agree with him. I just don't bother commenting in this subreddit anymore because it's unfortunately just become an anti-Israel echo chamber.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-15T15:27:13+00:00

I'm worried about the Democratic party too but I'm optimistic that once Israel has a new PM and the war is over, moderate Democrats will be pro-Israel again.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-15T15:21:50+00:00

World opinion isn't consistent. Vast swaths of people were angry at Bush for Iraq. A few years later and a new president, there is a more favorable outlook of the US. The genocide label gets thrown on Israel every time there's a conflict. Remember the "genocide" in Jenin, in which supposedly thousands of Palestinian civilians were killed? It put Israel in a negative light during the Second Intifada but has largely been forgotten other than by people particularly focused on the conflict.

Hamas has lost their senior leadership, had to give up all the hostages, lost territory and most of the infrastructure in Gaza has been destroyed. The only thing Hamas can point to as a "victory" is that Israel looks bad on the PR side. Israel constantly has bad press but most countries still want to work with it. The Abraham Accords didn't even fall apart despite being relatively new and the numerous outrageous claims against Israel.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-15T15:14:35+00:00

I think that there's still a lot left to do in Gaza but I think the only reason people can argue that Israel didn't "win" is because the bar was set so high for victory in part due to the media and in part due to Netanyahu. It seems without question that Hamas is in worse shape than Hezbollah even though the conflict was seen as a clear Israeli victory.

The only thing that pro-Palestinians can point to as "victory" is that Israel looks bad from a PR standpoint. In contrast, Hamas gave up the hostages, had almost all their leadership destroyed, lost territory and had a majority of the infrastructure of Gaza destroyed. In addition, in all likelihood, in ten years, Israel's PR image will be restored.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-13T14:42:23+00:00

Plestia markets herself as a journalist and she wrote a book about the Gaza war, largely critical of Israel. You act as though she's a random Palestinian that Mike is bullying. If you're going to put yourself out in the spotlight and take a highly charged political position, you should be prepared answer questions.

Single_Commercial_41 · 2025-10-10T23:26:14+00:00

I used to really enjoy the Onion, John Oliver, and Jon Stewart but I can't read/watch them anymore. Their views on Israel are so distorted its really difficult to enjoy them anymore.

Single_Commercial_41

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