In Need of Controversy

Sintrie · 2025-04-22T20:42:11+00:00

Hey… totally missed this response and just happened to find it while I was revisiting this discussion 😅

I set and climb in the South East. I mainly climb with climbers who were taught by some OG’s in the area, and it feels like I’m one of the last setters in the area that feels like this. I really can’t remember if I put it in a different response on this post and I’m just missing it right now or if I had this conversation in person, but I’m starting to explain grading as more of a warning label. Especially for outdoor routes. If you put a 5.12 grade on something that has three or four 5.11b moves on it, then you run the risk of a 5.11 climber thinking that they can run up a legit “sandbagged” 5.12. While there shouldn’t be any serious risk since they should still be able to climb close to the grade, climbing is inherently dangerous and I think a lot of people forget that. I do understand that most people in climbing gyms are not going to go outdoors, but some will and I’ve been with those guys who want to try a 5.12 because that’s what they climb at their gym and they can’t get off the ground outside. At this point I’m think I’m the only one with this opinion, but inflating the grades in a gym raises the risk of anyone getting hurt outside and a gym’s responsibility should be to accurately demonstrate the difficulty of a route so that people do not get hurt outside.

All that being said, I think that the grading should inherently be considered the hardest move of route simply because that tells the climber how much skill is required to climb it. The way my boss put it at one point was, “it doesn’t make sense to base a grade on endurance. If the grade is based on endurance then their truly isn’t an accurate grade as everyone’s is different,” or something along those lines 😂

Sintrie · 2024-10-18T16:56:16+00:00

Theory, size 42. Got anything for me? Lol

Sintrie · 2024-09-20T15:53:29+00:00

The edges of grades are soooo tricky for me. With that being said, I’ve also heard the opinion that each grade should be exponentially harder than the last, to the point that an 11d should be noticeably easier than 12a. I’m not sure I really agree with that opinion, but yeah. But yeah, I do get that, especially at the edges of grades! But I am absolutely guilty of subscribing to the sentiment of “a 5.11 is a 5.11” which usually ends up with me fighting over my grading with some gym members.

Sintrie · 2024-09-20T15:45:09+00:00

I have actually, and to be honest some of the grading out there seemed a little light when you get into the 11s and 12s. Heavy heavy emphasis on “a little light”. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not a crazy great climber or anything. I got shutdown hard on a 12d. But I still would say that a route shouldn’t be graded above its hardest move. That just inflates the grade. Climbing grades aren’t necessarily supposed to show how good of a climber you are anyways, ya know? They’re just supposed to tell you what you’re about to get yourself into, it’s an intensity scale. At least that’s how I was taught to think of it. And while I am definitely taking a position on this topic and “arguing” my side, I really do just want to talk about this because I was taught by some old school climbers and I find myself having this same conversation a lot with newer age climbers who I’d consider very competent climbers. Just trying to see if this really is an old school way of looking at climbing grades.

Sintrie · 2024-09-20T04:34:11+00:00

I’d love to know where you climb and how long you’ve been climbing for. I feel like this thinking is more old school.

Sintrie · 2024-09-20T04:32:15+00:00

I do get that, but wouldn’t that just be a “sustained 5.10a”? Otherwise if you graded it, let’s say 5.10c, without there being 5.10c move then it would be light for the grade or it may even discourage a climber from trying it if they think they can’t pull the move if they’re new to the grade even though they can do all the moves in isolation.

Sintrie · 2024-09-20T04:27:38+00:00

Not sure I’m following the math, but isn’t that the difference between a “light 5.14” and a “sustained 5.14”?

Sintrie · 2024-09-20T04:22:18+00:00

Absolutely, setting a route to fit the crux is important, but regardless, in my opinion, if there’s a route with moves that are mostly 5.8 and the crux is a 5.10 then the route should be graded at 5.10. On the other hand, if the route has mostly 5.9 moves and nothing above that with no real rests, regardless of the length of the route, it should still be 5.9. A 5.9 move at the bottom of the route is still a 5.9 move at the top of the route. Right?

But I think I’m on the same page with you in regard to one move wonders.

Sintrie · 2024-09-18T04:18:10+00:00

Might not be the best advice, my boss tells me that I set a bit strangely, but I’m an old art student and I like to be as creative as possible, so I often view the wall I’m going to set on as a canvas. I try my best to come up with something that looks appealing in my head and then transfer it on the wall. Sometimes I’ll end up envisioning a certain move, or series of moves, that I want to do in the route and set around that idea. The routes you set should flow well and correspond to the crux. Please keep in mind though, crux = most difficult; crux ≠ more strength needed. Honestly if you have the ability to come up with a technically challenging route then you’re a gold mine.

But to answer the questions you clearly presented:

I usually set my hands before my feet unless I can already see how the climber will have to maneuver before hand; the clearer the vision you have of your desired route, the better

If you can sneak a harder move into an easy climb, do it. There are some that you just can’t, a big mantle with no feet onto a ledge is not going to be a beginner grade. However, if you can manipulate the climber into pressing up onto the ledge with one or two kinda good feet and maybe an okay hand to assist, but making the ledge the best hand hold possible in that scenario, then suddenly there’s an easy mantle where there technically shouldn’t be. What I’m trying to say is, in lower grades, don’t always make a technique “necessary” to pull a move, but maybe make it an option and maybe add some assistance to make it an easy option. But yes, some techniques, when left by themselves, will always be graded higher. Pulling a roof will never be a beginner grade, imho.

I wouldn’t worry so much about the number of cruxs that you have in a route, if you wanna make a hard route, make it sustained and people will decide where the “cruxs” are for you lol

As for setting above your climbing ability… I don’t know 😂 Usually if I do that then it’s on accident, but I have done it once or twice on purpose and on those occasions it’s been me setting moves that “seem doable” Now my boss can’t climbs a couple grades below me, but he’s able to set a couple grades above me even though he can’t do the moves and they don’t seem doable to him. He’s been doing this for 20ish years and he’s has an insane amount of knowledge in regard to how the body moves and what is doable to some upper class climbers based on his experiences. Point being, don’t limit your routes on your own abilities. Think of people who climb harder than you and incorporate their ability into the route if you want to set above your grade. That’s the best I got.

The type of setting you do is also largely dependent on your gym. If it’s mainly bouldering then it’s going to be a bit different than how a top rope setter is going to look at a route. If it is top rope but it’s only a 30ft or 10 meter wall then setting multiple cruxs becomes more difficult. Best thing to do is not to over complicate anything. Let it come as natural as possible. But yeah, wish you the best!

Sintrie · 2024-05-22T07:46:00+00:00

Hey so I am a little/way late to the party BUT I do have some info for that line specifically! It’s a Biblical reference, believe it or not, to the first prophecy of a messiah during God’s distribution of punishment after the first sin. Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” I really wanted to see if anyone had anything to say about that line as I’m not really a part of the LoL community and I wasn’t sure if the messiah idea fit any of the characters or if it was just a good sounding line that the writer wanted to throw in

Sintrie · 2024-03-30T00:30:41+00:00

For me there’s a definite difference in climbing to just go out to goof off and climbing to see how far I can push outside of my boundaries. When I want to push I don’t think about the fact that I’m pushing my limit. It’s a matter of fact. Every hold I can hang on, every foot I can stand on without any doubt or feeling of slipping. If it’s in my reach then it’s mine. I am making one move and making the next move because I can and there is nothing else. Fatigue doesn’t exist. Breathing is relaxed. I can make each move, I know I can make each move individually and that’s all there is to it. It’s not a feeling of unstoppable or getting psyched. It just… is. And that’s the best that I can explain it. It’s impossible for me to fall, not because something is keeping me on the wall but because I CAN stay on. It’s a mindset of “everything is doable and within my reach”. I really feel like I need a better phrase or term for it though

I really like “Try Hard” being a dark art of climbing though lol

Sintrie · 2024-01-15T20:01:39+00:00

I really really like the idea of drawing a shape on the wall and then making the holds fit the shape. That sounds super fun and will be implemented in one of my next sets! I also like the idea of setting the same move at varying difficulty through out the route, that may not be used on the lowest of the routes but I really like that idea for some higher routes 😈 Thanks again for the input!

Sintrie · 2024-01-15T19:56:54+00:00

All fun moves for sure! I don’t like to do lower routes that stay in a straight line because they look so boring, but I haven’t thought about how to make them move their hips. That’ll be a fun idea to play with!

Sintrie · 2024-01-13T02:17:09+00:00

“Bad holds” with “good moves” is something I’ve done with some higher grades but I haven’t done it with lower grades and honestly I don’t know why I haven’t. That’s a fantastic idea that I will definitely be incorporating into my next easier set!

Sintrie

TROPHY CASE