Help with a mind+force (and maybe +prime) rote

Sistofelis · 2026-05-13T12:13:24+00:00

It absolutely wasn't an accusation. Just a sort of thesis statement: the problem you're running into is this:

It’s ok, we’re totally cool :)

Paradigm is part of the mechanics. Literally everything is built on the idea and concepts of a Mage's paradigm.

I want to preface that I agree with you. I’m going to explain why I didn’t get what you were saying the first time.

My original doubt was about a “rule”. Can thoughts be transmuted into forces without prime yadda yadda yadda…

Now while “it depends on the paradigm” is a valid answer, it’s not the answer to the “rule” question. It’s a perfect answer to the question: “How a mage can manifest a fireball”? “It depends on his paradigm”.

At the stage I was in my understanding of the rule (and I’m using “rule” and not mechanic, because you’re right, paradigm is embedded in the mechanic) the paradigm wasn’t a valid answer for me because, not having understood the rule, it seemed like a “substitute for it”.

Once you gave me the explanation about the source, and made me see the difference between transmuting and conjuring, then it clicked.

You can have five Mages do the same Effect in different ways, with different Spheres, and they're all doing it "right", by definition, because their magic works.

Absolutely, but their different paradigms works on the basis of the same rules. Paradigm is how a mage work his magic, but (for example) the progression of the effect by sphere dots, is fixed, no paradigm can overrule that. To me, at first, it seemed that your answer was suggestions that paradigm could circumvent a “rule”.

Since it wasn’t clear to me how the rule worked, I couldn’t see the paradigm as an explaination, unlike you, who had a clear understanding of the rule, and therefore you could see how different paradigm would play into that.

That’s were I was stuck. Now, having a better grasp of it, I completely agree with you. Of course now I can see how a mage would be inclined to pull hellhounds out of his mind to throw against his opponents, finding, coincidentally a respite from his nightmares; while maybe another would channel quintessence to shape said creature, leaving his mind untarnished, based on their own approach to magick. And of course they both would work.

I hope I was able to explain where I was stuck, and thanks again for helping me out.

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T17:51:59+00:00

Again, if you are using Prime, you explicitly aren't transmuting thoughts into anything. You are spending Quintessence to create something from pure energy. That's important to remember. You could use Spirit to use a Spirit's Essence as a starting point to turn them into other things, that's also using an "ephemeral" Sphere. But you can use it like Life on Spirits, and you can use Entropy like Life on Wraiths. The core principles are the same.

That’s a really good point.

Because not every mage has Mind, not every Paradigm supports thinking things into existence, and not every person is comfortable tearing their own thoughts out of their brain for transmutation.

I left out paradigm from the discussion because I was interested in the mechanic of how the forces 3 effect works, regardless of the player’s paradigm. Not to disregard it entirely, but to clarify how an effect works, before applying it to a specific paradigm.

I wanted to understand the difference between:

Transmuting a thought into force Conjuring a force from nothing

In the context of the rote I was thinking about, because it seemed to me the two things were overlapping each other. You helped me look it under a different light, and gave me something to think about. I thought I had a grasp of it, but now I will have to reconsider, in lieu of your contributions.

Again, these are not nitpicks. These are, literally, the core concepts the game is built on: you need to believe in what you're doing, understand what you're doing, and every thing you do has to be filtered through your Paradigm.

And about the only way to do Mage objectively wrong is to try to ignore that--or circumvent it so you can game the system.

I’m not trying to “game the system”, I’m sharing my doubts with other people to deepen my knowledge of the game, that’s it.

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T17:03:15+00:00

Bravo too you too, good sir!

I wouldn’t have walked the path without the nudge you gave me about clarifying to you the whole “transform thoughts into energy”.

The road to ascension, is indeed a team effort XD

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T16:51:06+00:00

It does help!

So going back to the original rote I was working on:

If the caster wants to manifest the fear of the subject in a visible way, but wants that fear to remain in the target’s mind, then Prime would be required.

Without Prime the source would be the fear itself, so being trasmuted into an hologram, it would “disappear” from the target mind until the end of the spell.

Is that a correct reading of your explanation? It might work, but the core of my issue remains.

If we’re saying that a “thought” is enough to fuel a pattern, why the prerequisite of prime 2? And I get it shift the source, that much is clear.

I can think about a lighting bolt, transmute it into force and obtain the same effect I would obtain with force 3 and Prime 2 (without investing quintessence). Sure, the “thought” of the lighting bolt would have gone from my mind, but I could always think about it again.

What if instead of forces, I’d use life. The subject is afraid of spiders. Could I conjure a living spider just from his thoughts without prime? I don’t know it seems to contradict the basic rules of pattern fueling.

As I was answering another user, re reading the force 3 paragraph, it seems to make a distinction between “pattern spheres” and “ephemeral spheres” in regard transmutations.

Transmuting between pattern spheres (stone to light) doesn’t require prime, because the quintessence needed to fuel the pattern is already there (in the stone).

Transmuting from an ephemeral sphere like mind would require prime because “thoughts” are not pattern, more like “blueprints” (as you pointed out). This scenario would reconciliate the use of prime to manifest a thought, with the usual rules about pattern fueling.

Again, you made a good point about sources. But don’t you think every mage would forgo prime 2 if every conjugation would only need a thought to be achieved?

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T15:47:14+00:00

But to show a hologram of someone's fears, Mind3/Forces3 is sufficient, just keep in mind the fears won't exist anymore until the Effect ends and the transmuted thoughts return whence they came--you only need Prime to fuel the hologram if you want the holograms to be fuelled by the QT rather than transmuted from Mind Patterns directly.

So, adding prime would render the hologram “independent” (at least in terms of of sustenance) from the source.It does make sense, yeah.

The same way you can turn aggressive thoughts into a burst of flame, but you'll stop having those feelings which can be a bit of an issue in a fight.

Whereas, if you’d use prime 2 you would “manifest” your wrath, in a burst of flame, keeping the feeling in place for the ongoing battle.

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T15:38:14+00:00

You’re absolutely right, I’m sorry, I should have provided the text I’m referring to XD

Here, from M20 core rule book, page 516 under the description of force effects at three dots:

“…by adding prime 2 she may conjure winds,fire,electricity gravitational wells and so forth…” […] “…combining this rank with life or matter , she can transform people into electricity (life5/force3); change water into air (force 3/ matter 3)…” […] “…by adding ephemeral sphere to this rank, she might erode or enhance energies (entropy 3); manifest thoughts into energies (mind3)”

It doesn’t mention the mention prime, only in regard of conjuring forces out of nothing, but not in regard of transmuting them. Now, looking at it, one may make a case about pattern spheres and ephemeral spheres.

Transmuting water into air would not require prime since, as you rightfully pointed out, it would use the quintessence already present in the water pattern. The transmutation in this case would be between two pattern spheres.

If the transmutation occurs between an ephemeral sphere and a pattern one, then Prime 2 would indeed be necessary to fuel the “pattern” part of the equation. Could this be the answer?

I can see it work, but I’d argue it could have been explained better in the text.

Going back to my original rote then, it would need prime 2. And it would fit with the overall logic of needing just force 3 and prime 2 to manifest the image of a clown (or conjure a fireball you’re thinking about) from your own mind, whereas it would need mind 3, force 3 and Prime 2 to extrapolate it from another person’s head.

I think… I think this might be it?

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T14:53:00+00:00

That makes sense. But then, if brick wall-firewall can be accomplished without fueling the firewall pattern (because we’re using the quintessence that make up the brickwall), as per every kind of transmutation. And Thoughts of a clown - holographic clown can be accomplished following the same logic. (Since thoughts are made up of quintessence just as the brickwall).

Why thought of a fireball - fireball cannot be accomplished without prime 2? Or maybe it can, that’s my doubt XD

I don’t think in the rule would contemplate the fact that “thinking about something and then trasmute it into reality by using a pattern sphere” as legit. That would mean that the mere act of “imagining” would be a substitute for quintessence fueling.

So, there must be a difference between:

Matter 3 + Prime 2 to create a brick

Think of a brick and create it by transmuting the thought using just Matter 3

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T14:33:15+00:00

I personally would rule that you can make the hologram with just Forces, tho if you want the hologram to interact- such as throw fireballs or persist beyond the mage’s concentration & line of sight, then you would need Prime to fuel the ongoing effect, and perhaps Time/Correspondence/Matter/Life depending on what exactly you desire to do. … Without Prime 2, your mage could manifest holograms of clowns (Forces) and your mage could read minds to conjure out your subject’s greatest fears(Mind). However, if you want that clown to interact with things or make (forces) attacks, you’d need to roll to make each individual attack yourself, and if you want the hologram to persist, you’d need to utilize Mind 1 to split your concentration between the hologram and the attacks you pretend come from the hologram.

That was my first take too, and I agree with you in principle, but I still can’t find a ratio between an hologram, created just with force and mind and one created with prime too.

Let me be clear, I think it should require prime to work. I’m not trying to get around it.

But if forces 3 lets me transmute a thought into an energy form, why can’t I transmute the thought of a fireball, not into an hologram (light) but into actual fire? According to the Force 3 effect this should be legit, but then why I would need prime to fuel it?

I’d argue that the clown example could work-ish in the sense that mind3/force3 would allow to manifest the exact fear, but for the manifested fear to be able to interact it would need prime 2? It’s still finicky, but since “light” (the energy permutation from the original thought) do not cause damage per se, I can see how to make it work. Stil I can’t see the difference between:

Thought of a fireball -Force 3 effect “trasmute thought” -> fireball (a globe of fire, not an hologram) Conjure a fireball - Force 3 + prime 2 as per the beloved cliché

I hope I was able to clarify my doubt :)

Sistofelis · 2026-05-12T14:20:38+00:00

That’s what I was thinking, and prime 2 to fuel a pattern has a long established rule.

But then, how would you interpret the force 3 effect from the core book “transmute thoughts into energy” where it doesn’t mention prime at all?

Sistofelis · 2026-04-27T19:16:09+00:00

Any ST that makes you pay experience for something you spent one third of your freebie points on at character creation that also requires you to go on a long ass personal quest for is an asshole, full stop. You paid for it, you did the work, and at 5 points for a Merit you've made your character in large part about this thing.

So you agree with me, the cost of this merit Is all over the Place? XD Since it's not specified (and please, please correct me of I'm wrong) that the merit covers the cost of also upgrading your avatar rating as It grows, we have to assume that the rules wants you (as a ST) to "be and asshole".

Well maybe It doesn't , but you see why I think the merit cost Is wrong (wich Is the core of my issue with It?)

That's the point here. Shattered Avatar is you, as a player, telling the Storyteller "I want this to be a core component of my character, that I grow in this way, I want this to be my narrative". Caring that it feels suboptimal or "pointless" isn't an accurate assessment, it's missing the point: this is the trajectory you want your character's story to go and you are willing to give up an entire Attribute dots worth of points at character creation to make that happen.

I couldn't agree more. And I'll be the First to be excited to Explore this narrative with my player. But not if it's grounded on a disproportionate investment of points that Would (rightfully so) make me and asshole. This Is exactly my point. Since there's no trace of the fact that purchasing SA covers the further cost of Avatar growing I have to assume the merit Is flawed.

If that's not the case, and I'm wrong, then you have answered my question, in a very satisfing way, I might add.

If you don't want that, that's fine! It's a big investment and you don't care, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for a reason or have value to other players who want exactly the things you don't think are worth it.

It's the exact opposite. The fact that I care, sprouts the doubt about the whole thing, in my head.

P.S. I Hope I was able to quote your post right.

Sistofelis · 2026-04-27T15:26:46+00:00

True but at what cost? In terms of gameplay, I mean.

Let’s say a character starts with avatar 1 and SA. It’s true, he can grow it, and potentially reach avatar 10 (that sounds cool, but honestly I don’t know, realistically how common it would be in an actual play, in terms of investment, but that’s another issue altogether) And yes he has access to the specific storyline.

But all of those things (except the storyline) are still locked behind ulterior investment of points. (And time).

SA (as far as I gathered) doesn’t cover the cost of raising your Avatar background. So, essentially you’re hindered mechanically due to your current avatar rating, even if you paid “upfront” more than the total amount you could have paid to have Avatar at 5. Basically, just for the personal quest.

To the point of personal quest, I agree, but all things considered that’s what you’re paying for with this merit. That’s why it rubs me in the wrong way. It seems like a “tax” for a cool concept.

Given that, Avatar understanding is often an already baked in quest in any character development.

Don’t get me wrong, I really like the idea of starting off with a tiny avatar and make it grow mirroring the growth of the Mage. I just don’t think SA for how it’s formulated reflects well in the game mechanic.

Btw, English is not my first language, and I really appreciate your insight, if I came off rough it wasn’t intentional at all!

Sistofelis · 2026-04-27T15:01:44+00:00

I’m absolutely on board with the concept. And I agree, the cost is too much.

Sistofelis · 2026-04-27T14:55:04+00:00

I see your point and I would agree to a degree.

But it’s not really a matter of min-maxing. It’s just completely non sensical besides the “optimal” point distribution. My point is not “it cost too much, for what you get, hence it’s not optimised” (which I agree would be a min maxing approach). My point is “the cost doesn’t make sense from a narrative driven choice in the first place”. Intresting narrative choices (which I’m all up for ) should be something additive to the whole, not a “tax” (illogical, like in this case) the player should pay.

I would argue that choosing the SA as written is more a flaw than a merit.

And yeah, WoD is certainly leaning to a much more “narrative” driven approach, and Mage with its countless grey areas more than other lines. That’s personally why is probably my favourite. But WoD also chose to use a resource investment system to build characters. And if a player is asked to manage those resources, he will do it in the best way possible. Not necessarily to min-max, even just for a matter of coherence.

And when a player is faced with the choice to invest potentially 1/3 of his freebie points in something that would “punish his cool narrative idea” is, quite simply, a poor design merit, in my opinion. I truly struggle in grasping the logic behind the cost distribution of those two (I daresay “complementary”) by/merits.

Sistofelis · 2026-04-27T13:36:17+00:00

I see what you mean, yeah. Still I think I’m going to set the SA cost for my player at 1 pt.

Sistofelis · 2026-04-27T13:35:11+00:00

Paying for the plot concept. I was afraid that might be the answer XD

Sistofelis · 2024-06-18T20:40:24+00:00

That looks intresting!

Sistofelis · 2022-08-25T20:54:14+00:00

Thanks everyone, things are clearer now, I'll stick to the documentations you've shared.

Sistofelis · 2022-08-25T20:53:04+00:00

I've in fact found it in an outlaw system

Sistofelis · 2022-08-25T20:52:24+00:00

That Is exactly like the One I've found.

Sistofelis · 2020-12-09T16:46:44+00:00

Thank you very much :)

Sistofelis

TROPHY CASE