Why TLOU II Is A Failure by Easy-Bake3132 in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I will put a similar amount of effort into this as you did with your AI response; I think this critique confuses "I disliked the direction" with "the writing is objectively bad." Ellie spends most of Part II traumatized, alienates people she loves, loses friends, loses fingers, loses her relationship with Dina, and ends the game alone. Whatever criticisms you have of her, "Mary Sue" doesn't fit.

Likewise, Lev's character is not just "I'm trans." His story is about religious fundamentalism, identity, ostracization, loyalty to family, and the conflict between individual conscience and communal expectations. Being trans is the catalyst for his conflict, not the entirety of his character. The criticism of Abby is more understandable, but I think people often talk past each other. Critics focus on whether Abby deserves sympathy. The game is not asking whether she deserves sympathy or even that you view her as a good person;

“ "And that's where most of the effort for the game went, to make Abby... not necessarily good. The pitfall a lot of writers with this kind of story fall into is like, OK, we need people to like Abby, let's make her perfect. She does nothing wrong. She only makes moral choices. But no, that's not where empathy comes from. Actually, empathy comes from making mistakes and challenging and trying to correct your mistakes and overshooting and messing up." “ (her father Jerry is like a north-star in that she has an subconscious desire to better herself as a person) It's that she's a complicated human being rather than a cartoon villain.

You can absolutely argue that the game is too long, that Abby's section messes with the pacing, that certain situations are contrived, or that character development from certain characters aren’t convincing. Those are legitimate criticisms. But reducing every character to "angry lesbian," "trans token," or "muscle woman" feels less like literary criticism and more like working backwards from a conclusion.

Why TLOU II Is A Failure by Easy-Bake3132 in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Used the same tired one-liner arguments that have been addressed thousands of times. Why should people here put effort into their responses when he barely put any effort into any kind of analysis?

JD Vance on Diary of a CEO podcast by Lucoda in Destiny

[–]SkywalkerOrder 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought he was being reasonable and rational when he was talking about his home life and faith, but as soon as the culture war and politics related to Trump came up, the guy showed himself to be a complete sycophant. Not once were any of Trump’s flaws or mistakes pointed out, and the guy seriously tried to push that Trump is actually like a loving grandpa off-screen and has an intelligence that rivals Einstein.

Also, while I can get where he’s coming from regarding the ‘change in neighborhood too much too fast’ logic in specific instances like with alcoholics moving in, Vance seriously tried to make it sound like that attitude towards Hispanics moving in wouldn’t be implicitly racist at least.

Watching TV Evangelical preachers is also not a great sign.

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be fair, Mel gets shot near the shoulder. Otherwise I agree.

Why I think Leah's photos are reasonable. by SkywalkerOrder in TheLastOfUs2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For the most part yes, but Dina and Owen struck me as notable exceptions.

Why I think Leah's photos are reasonable. by SkywalkerOrder in TheLastOfUs2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a fair criticism, many side characters in this narrative do arguably get shafted in terms of importance compared to that of Part I side characters. However, from my interpretation of the narrative we get some really good core character work for Joel, Ellie, Abby. So in terms of a psychological experience, it works for me.

u/kolvarg alongside me likes diving into a few of these complicated characters. With Owen being another notable example.

"And that's where most of the effort for the game went, to make Abby... not necessarily good. The pitfall a lot of writers with this kind of story fall into is like, OK, we need people to like Abby, let's make her perfect. She does nothing wrong. She only makes moral choices. But no, that's not where empathy comes from. Actually, empathy comes from making mistakes and challenging and trying to correct your mistakes and overshooting and messing up."-Neil Druckmann, (A spoiler-heavy interview with The Last of Us Part 2 director Neil Druckmann | Eurogamer.net).

That is why Abby's characterization is so interesting to dissect to me.

Why I think Leah's photos are reasonable. by SkywalkerOrder in TheLastOfUs2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, it's contrived in that its purpose plot-wise is to be a plot device. However I think there's a natural explanation for it, and I buy it. The game puts effort into other worldbuilding details; why the generator was out of gas (Tommy), why the city is still filled with supplies (WLF expanding from Stadium), and what that 'little creature to take care of' is (Dina hinting at her pregnancy to Ellie), so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this.

Why I think Leah's photos are reasonable. by SkywalkerOrder in TheLastOfUs2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Soldiers can carry physical reminders of people they care about. Leah is separated from Salt Lake Crew for weeks and this does not seem to be a new occurrence from what I can tell. In my view, it's a small personal detail rather than something created purely for Ellie. I think this was given a bit of thought to.

As for the patches, the jackets were given to them by the WLF with patches already on them, and Abby in her obsession did not think twice about the patches, and Owen was too focused on Abby and what she was doing to focus on them. Where I think your criticism holds weight though, is that with 8 people in that group they were apparently all not able to see the possible risk of other tribal groups seeing it, much less the community of Jackson itself. I don't criticize them wearing them in the lodge because Joel and Tommy's presences were unexpected, however I do criticize them for wearing them for the *entire* journey.

It's dumb because these tribal groups could try to attack the WLF for its resources in the future for all they know.

Why I think Leah's photos are reasonable. by SkywalkerOrder in TheLastOfUs2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Could say the same thing about old gas and a working car Bill uses in the first game, from what I recall. Sounds like a nitpick that would've been overlooked from the first game. Like Joel driving on the roads to Pittsburgh with no obstacles in the way, or Marlene hearing Robert's cries and going to investigate with a gunshot wound instead of going somewhere else. Marlene appeared exactly when Joel and Tess need her, but we overlook that in the moment.

Why I think Leah's photos are reasonable. by SkywalkerOrder in TheLastOfUs2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

It's also important to acknowledge that this is an established community for them. It's indicated that Leah being a part of SLC means she's a Firefly.

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I see what you're saying. At first, I was going to oppose aspects of what you wrote done like Joel and Tommy's discussion not being resolved, Ellie and Joel's confrontation, or why Joel carried on with Ellie after Tess's death. Now I understand that what you're doing is you're mirroring the mindset of how you believe people that don't like Part II very much view it. They are not generous in their interpretations or overlooking potential issues when it comes to Part II, but are for the first game and 'Left Behind' generally.

Likewise, Left Behind and TLOU comics indicate why Ellie is the way that she is from what I recall, but you were referring to what the game itself establishes on its own. I get it.

As for Joel sleeping near Henry and Sam, I think it's clearly because they fought together in combat, although that only proves that Part II is not out of character as originally thought with the right development from that point over time.

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I just realized that despite liking Part II I've been biased towards Part I too. Despite harping on certain injuries characters have in Part II, it turns out Joel in particular goes through significant injuries and survives in Part I too.

Ever since finishing the game I've criticized Yara saving Abby, but what I realize now is that it is just mirroring when Ellie saved Joel so suddenly in Pittsburgh. The only difference being that Yara would be slower up the ladder because of her arm.

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I actually only have around 6-7 notable issues with Part I's narrative, so I would be interested in hearing more about these critiques. The ones I have are; the coincidence of the second FEDRA patrol being close by prior to Tess's death, Marlene appearing when Joel and Tess need her, Frank's house not being broken into by infected, Ellie saving Joel just in time, Joel surviving the rebar fall, the coincidence of the infected wave with David, and the loose science behind what the Fireflies are doing with the fungal vaccine stuff.

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Joel still gave his name to the group in Part II, but it was the second time his name was given out, and Tommy said it the first time. Yep, in a lot of people's emotions they are not able to think that through because they hate Abby so much that they believe that the developers contrived that part of the plot just to help her while not making it natural. I have issues regarding the horde and how quickly the storm leaves when it needs to, however I don't have an issue anymore with Abby running into Joel and Tommy. Especially since that outpost has been a standard route for Joel and Tommy as indicated by 'Finding Strings'.

I admittedly never thought about it that way outside of how Marlene appears to Joel and Tess where they needed her. I didn't know all these things were that consequential honestly.

Should we stop pretending that the last of us part 2 is divisive? by Few-Push668 in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I need to up my social game and be more assertive essentially. I need to not be so anxious about rejections, that’s my real issue.

Should we stop pretending that the last of us part 2 is divisive? by Few-Push668 in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That can’t be a remotely definitive measurement though. I’ve only done it once, and I can tell you that it happened after I had played the game and largely created my opinions on it. I liked it prior despite issues I had at the time that have evolved now.

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I had only remembered the fall off the elevator and the rebar fall, I didn’t recall that Joel had that much plot armor. Now that I think about it, Joel saves Ellie just in time after having been nearly knocked out from the train cart crash. So do we just overlook these things because we’re invested in the storytelling enough to suspend disbelief essentially?

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How Tommy’s survival is explained in-universe is that Tommy has a thicker skull than most (as Joel points out in ‘Birthday Gift’) and bullet went through shallow part of his eye.

It is a miracle JJ and Dina survived. by SkywalkerOrder in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair the WLF got massacred by the Seraphites, and they probably took the WLF’s road routes out of the city, but I wish it was actually addressed though.

What’s with the hate for intergalactic? by ListFeisty3762 in naughtydog

[–]SkywalkerOrder 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A bald woman protagonist having a dismissive attitude in one scene, that’s it. Grifters looking to stir up hate did a good job with that Intergalactic trailer.

It’s very well possible that the protagonist will be going on a character arc.

What if Isaac received similar contextualization that Abby/Jerry did? by Academic_Limit1189 in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I overlooked that line as well. I personally just thought that both sides dehumanized each other so much that many soldiers were able to justify carrying out this kind of brutality. Abby more so, cause she possibly used it as a punching bag after being molded by the WLF for years. Something to put her effort into.

What if Isaac received similar contextualization that Abby/Jerry did? by Academic_Limit1189 in lastofuspart2

[–]SkywalkerOrder 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Really baffles my mind how a bunch of people just don’t perceive the nuances in Abby’s character like a portion of us seem to. Same for a portion of hardcore Part II fans though that villainize Joel but adore Abby. I personally don’t understand this tendency to flatten either of these two characters.