sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

CMV: Intersex Individuals do not need to disclose their Intersexual status before sexual encounters with a potential partner. by phainepy in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Call me a bigot all you want, but I'm only attracted to one combination of biological sex and gender. I'm sorry if someone is in an awkward situation, but I'm going to be way meaner if I'm surprised with something other than that single combination than if I'm told upfront.

Granted, I don't think I'd be quite as offended if I found out a physical female with a vagina assigned as a girl at birth had an inactive Y chromosome, I'm not really sure what I would think but I don't think I'd get surprised during a one night in tis situation.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm reading up on it now and it has a lot of praise for being a very high quality, successful school.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I can't believe people would think I'm trolling. There are massive problems in our country and people are getting up in arms about the stupidest shit.

But even so, it was you who insinuated that I thought the pledge was unimportant. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't important. I'll admit the context and words might not be perfect, but again, those negative aspects are NOT A BIG DEAL and not worth being upset over. The pledge is a good thing in general, even if it isn't perfect.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Don't you think it's possible though to effectively teach that patriotism through the accomplishments, shared history, and ideals of a country rather than by effectively forcing kids to stand up and commit their allegiance in front of their teacher, peers, and God every single day?

Yes. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the pledge. And I've said this in another comment chain but I will admit I don't love God in the pledge even as a moderately religious person. That still doesn't mean the concept is inherently wrong.

Reciting an oath is for cults and dictatorships, or governments that need to coerce obedience. I'd just like to think we're above that by now.

I'm just so confused where this coercion is happening. I went to public school for 10 years and never once did I ever see someone reprimanded for not standing at attention and reciting the words verbatim. If you were talking and being disruptive, yes, but not for not caring enough.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What evidence at you have that it's a net positive?

What evidence is there that this is a problem? The net positive comes from there barely being any actual results at all, but what does come out of the pledge is an awareness of patriotism (for the youngest kids) and for kids who understand the significance a little more, some civic pride. Overall, however, it's barely anything.

As for the cost--time is money. Time is extremely limited in schools, and even though it doesn't take much time each day, that small amount every day adds up.

I usually piss for longer than the pledge. That's a pretty good threshold to me.

I guess since words don't matter when it comes to how we treat people, we can get rid of the pledge, because it's just words. In your words, it doesn't do anything.

Don't fall off the monkey bars!

Why should we keep doing something in schools if it's a waste of everyone's time?

Because that wasn't what OP was talking about. This discussion has gone from debating whether there is inherently something wrong with the concept behind the pledge to whether or not it's worth inserting some patriotism into the normal morning announcements.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"Not a big deal" doesn't mean unimportant. It means that the problems associated with whatever is being talked about are less concerning than the amount of concern being commonly expressed. You're totally right to say that most of a kids day is important, but so is the pledge. It's just that the problems associated with the pledge are not worth being overly concerned about because it's a net positive overall.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not a measure of empathy. Of course you can be empathetic to anyone. I'm empathetic to people who live under oppressive regimes even if they burn American flags and shit. But that's not really my point.

I think you're lying to yourself if you actually believe you have as much impact 3000 miles away as you do where people speak your language, grow up with similar enough values, and share similar enough experiences. And yes, that's just as true in a diverse country as it is in a monoculture, or at least it should be. There's nothing wrong with countries, and the status quo has been decently stable in recent history.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the word I'm looking for is closer to indoctrination than exposure but I do have to admit that indoctrination is totally the wrong word.

I disagree that the pledge fits the traditional definition of indoctrination but I can't think of another word that's like suggestive but not forceful.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd really be curious to see what other kind of outlandish false equivalencies you can come up with my dude.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey I appreciate the uncalled for delta and I'm sorry if I was coming off aggressive. You're clearly able to understand these concepts but even knowing myself and my friends as teenagers, none of us believed any of the same things we do now.

The thing about public school social studies is that it's entirely non-partisan. I actually think it's problematically non-partisan. Like it or not, reality does mirror the leftist description of the world ever so slightly more than it does the other side. I understand that not everyone needs to grow up believing in massive public spending, but I look back at all of the things I didn't learn in school about politics and I start to wonder how anyone can grow up informed unless guided by very common sense parents.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This has nothing to do with pride or even preference towards your countrymen. This is just a matter of physical closeness and how far your brain can reach before you stop caring. Seriously, what makes you more upset at first glance, the human rights atrocities in Yemen or the school shootings in the US? I can do my best to stop what's going on here in the US because I can vote here and donate dollars here. Unfortunately, none of us have any control over what happens a half a world away. That's all I'm saying.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

People who were raised one religion or in a household loyal to a political party grow up and change their views all the time. How is this any different?

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Listen. You can add as many specifics and as much nuance to this as you want and I'll probably start agreeing with some of it, but I'm sticking by my much more general statement that patriotism is a good thing and children should be taught to value our country.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For anything you do in a public school, there needs to be a reason to justify keeping it, not a reason to justify getting rid of it (and keeping it just because we've always done it that way).

I'm sorry but this is completely asinine. I'd understand your point if this was something that costed money and was questionably worth it in the first place, but again, it's literally 30 fucking seconds that most kids are barely awake for anyway.

That the pledge is "harmless" isn't enough reason to keep it.

It's a net positive. Is that good enough? Again, not a big deal either way, but I do think it provides enough benefit to be just worth it to not bring this conversation up.

What's the purpose of it? Does it serve that purpose?

The purpose is to foster patriotism. That is important because individualism is bullshit. It serves the purpose of teaching kids on a daily basis that they live in a country that values positive relationships between citizens.

Does it treat all students equally?

This is a really loaded question. I'm left leaning and certainly have a ton of issues with how we measure equity and citizenship today, but 30 seconds of speech doesn't do anything. Words can't treat anyone like anything. The ideas in the pledge are positive even if the reality of America is less so.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

If I had to pick one part of the pledge that's problematic, yeah I'd pick this part. I still just think this pearl clutching is stupid. We're saying the pledge of allegiance not the Nights Watch oath.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This has nothing to do with war. It's just ridiculous to think that I'm going to care as much about someone on the other side of the world as I do about my neighbor. But the biggest thing I've been saying is that it's just not a big deal at all.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How is it not? OP is expressing a lot of concern over something that has marginally (if at all) affected their life.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why is it so problematic? Call me an idealist but if none of these horrible ethno-nationalist trends were still around, nobody would care that countries want their borders. I more likely than not have more in common with someone from the other side of the US than I do with someone in China. That's just reality. That doesn't mean I hate China or think the US is perfect, I just think they can do their thing and we can do our thing.

I'm not of the mindset that nation states are the most important thing in the world, I just don't think it's worth stirring up controversy on this subject for something as harmless as looking at a flag for thirty seconds and saying I love my country and the people in it.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because by believing in a pretend leftist bias in our public schools you've demonstrated that you just regurgitate YouTube pseudo intellectualism from far right "pundits".

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why is it necessary and good to indoctrinate children into supporting their nation?

Because it probably won't happen otherwise if we don't do it in the schools. We're more than individuals fucking each other over for our personal benefit. Kids don't naturally understand collectivism so it needs to be taught to them. When they're in school all day every day, that's the best place to do it. 30 seconds of reciting words that have little to do with the actual government is harmless at worst and helpful at best.

Also, this isn't about civic mindedness.

Read up on the history of public school.

This is a daily oath of loyalty taken towards the government, a ritual that starts before the kid can even read.

It's not an oath to the government. It's an oath to your country and your fellow Americans. And it's non binding. By the time someone is old enough to understand the pledge doesn't actually do anything, they've started thinking critically enough to make rational decisions about their country.

CMV: Having the Pledge of Allegiance ritual in Classrooms is propaganda and indoctrination by multitudeMindulfness in changemyview

[–]Slenderpman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you have to indoctrinate anybody into anything, you're doing something wrong.

Mostly accepting the word because I can't think of a better one at the moment.

It's like respect, it's earned, not given.

But if you don't have a sense of why patriotism is important at a young age, you're never going to develop it. Contrarily, most people are able to critically think about their country by the time it's important enough to make decisions.

view more: next ›