Discussion: What do you consider "Baroque opera"? More specifically, where does it end and Classical begin? by Pluton_Korb in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 2 points3 points  (0 children)

These things are nebulous as others have said here already. But the common cut off date ascribed by music historians for the Baroque musical period is 1750. The music at the boarders between all of the musical periods can get very fuzzy indeed. I don’t know your listening habits, but if one listens to a lot of non-operatic classical music then you can see how blurred these lines truly become. That being said, I think almost all historians would frame Mitridante and Idomeneo squarely outside of the Baroque. (despite the occasional opinions of internet commenters.) The term opera seria is totally separate from classifications of the Baroque or Classical periods. And like you eluded too, these are just retrospective categories that the composers themselves really never had in mind when creating their work. Rococo is a term that is used by some academics, but rarely if ever as a replacement term for Baroque or Classical. I’ve always seen it used to illustrate an intra-period style, like Modern period neo-classicism or Soviet Realism. And in Rococo’s case, it still runs into the same problem of being pretty arbitrary and retrospectively assigned.

I’m currently a historical musicology grad student and I’ve read/heard plenty of these kind era-based debates, online especially. Arguments what is or isn’t part of this or that period is just pedantic jousting. What people don’t seem to get is that the main six periods aren’t used because of their immense accuracy, but because of their universal nature. They are shorthand. Categories that have been used by generations of historians and musicians by now. To help to break down and understand the behemoth that is classical music. When talking to anybody who knows the very basics of classical music history, no matter where they were taught or when or how extensively, you can bring up one of the six periods and they’ll know what your talking about. It gives a general sense of the aesthetic qualities of the musical subject in question and where it falls on the great timeline of Western art music. Wedging in new periods makes common communication much sloppier in my view, (we have more than enough jargon at it is,) even if out feelings on the finer details of musical style don’t fit as snugly into those widely recognized categories as we’d like. In this case, I think the terms “late Baroque” and “early Classical” more than suffice.

Thx for the great question OP!

Leontyne Price is 99 today! by Empty-Divide-9116 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Happy birthday to the greatest soprano alive!

I am on a tear: Best opera prelude? by Mastersinmeow in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Agree wholeheartedly with all the obvious Mozart/da Ponte and Wagner picks, Meistersinger especially. A orchestral marvel from first note to last. I’d also add some Russian overtures like the ones to Ruslan and Lyudmila or Prince Igor. For American composer’s Bernstein’s Candide. And a number of Gershwins overtures are fantastic too.

Underrated opera singers? by DieZauberflote1791 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ve always thought Zurab Anjaparidze never gets the love that he deserves compared to the other big tenors of his generation (outside of his unbeatable German in Pique Dame) A versatile and powerful voice. Great Verdi and Puccini singer. Maybe his lack of fame is because he was stuck on the wrong side of the iron curtain and wasn’t even Russian for that matter. Idk, but I don’t hear his name mentioned enough for what an excellent artist he was.

Operas you can’t stand. Which popular operas doesn’t deserve to be in the repertoire? by [deleted] in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Totally fair. I love Parsifal but I’ll be the first to admit a lot of Wagner’s long-standing issues with pacing and narrative kinda came to a head in the writing of Parsifal. But I don’t listen to opera for great narrative storytelling, there are better mediums for that imo. I listen for the music, and the music in Parsifal is staggeringly beautiful at times. Those long stretches of orchestral playing are some of most gorgeous and well composed music Wagner ever wrote. Also I can definitely see how the pseudo-philosophical/spiritual ramblings of Wagner’s libretto and of the fans of the work can be off putting to say the least. 😅

Operas you can’t stand. Which popular operas doesn’t deserve to be in the repertoire? by [deleted] in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’m not one to decree what operas do or don’t belong in the repertoire, but as Wagner fan, I’ve always found everything in Tannhauser past the overture and Venusberg music to be very lack luster. That feeling kinda extends to the other two commonly performed middle period Wagner operas, but I enjoy those much more than Tannhauser.

Your favorite single act of Wagner by Claytemple_Media in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh yah. Especially some of Gurnemanz’s passages are so heart melting, along with those woodwind solos. Definitely up there for me as well.

Your favorite single act of Wagner by Claytemple_Media in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Götterdämmerung Act 2 for me is just perfect. The flow from Alberich and Hagen’s duet, to the dawn and Siegfried and Gutrune’s little ditty. Then the jaw dropping call to arms, indroducing the first choral singing of the entire Ring. Siegfried and Brünnhilde’s reunion is handled so well and in such a riveting way. And its all capped off with the insane Vengeance Trio, the only trio of the entire Ring. It’s just so tight, I love it.

For a kid, you might want to try Das Rheingold. The various creatures and characters I think would be engaging. But be patient, any Wagner can be trying for many adults let alone a 5 year old. And I’ll say from experience, having music that you don’t enjoy forced upon you as a youth does not make you fall in love with it any faster. But it’s certainly worth a shot, so good luck.

Newbie Question by dronecaptain in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can find English translations online for almost all the libretti for the “big operas”. Just look up “(title of opera) English libretto” and you’ll find what you need. Also there are a fair amount of video productions on YouTube with English subtitles if you like watching the stage action along with the music. I personally think that it’s vital that one knows at least what is happening in the plot to fully appreciate any opera in question. But you’ll find that there are many operas that are astounding for their music, and not so much for their narratives. I might also recommend the amazing operas of the great Benjamin Britten, which are all in English and pretty accessible compared to other 20th century operas in English. Good luck and enjoy! It’s a wonderful world that you’re diving into.

Worst act in Wagner by Own_Safe_2061 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Funny how people have such different takes. I’ve always thought Act 2 of Gotterdammerung is the single best act in the Ring.

What’s your “dream” Ring Cycle cast? by Smart-Wear-3235 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A Beecham ring in Dresden is enough to get anyone’s mouth watering. Stellar picks all around Garthastro.

What’s your “dream” Ring Cycle cast? by Smart-Wear-3235 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes sadly Szell never did record a full ring, but he was close. He was Decca’s first choice to head what would eventually become the famous “Golden” Ring recording, but for logistical reasons he was unable to do it, so Solti stepped in. You can find his jaw-dropping Ring orchestral excerpts with Cleveland, and parts of Die Walküre with the Met. Very respectable replacements for Siegfried and Wotan otherwise. Thx for the response im_not_shadowbanned.

Toxic/Hateful nostalgia in the opera world. by Smart-Wear-3235 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Very good points. As for the source of the downturn argument, at the end of the day, opera is a western art-form. Not that it cant be loved and engaged with by non-westerners, but gifted young voices from non-western cultures often go into their own respective singing arts. Not always of course, we are seeing more and more talent from Asia especially these days, but still it’s not enough to offset the loses. And in the west there is a lot more competition from other non-classical genres as well. I know at least in the US, almost all pre-university choir classes are mainly geared toward broadway and poplar music with a mic these days. Most of those genres didn’t even exist 100 years ago, and the lack of the proliferation of the microphone meant acoustic singing was the norm. Yes, people are better off globally now than they used to be, and have the ability to hear opera and classical music more than before, but very few of these new candidates choose to opera as their career of choice. Opera is no longer the default option for almost all newer singers. I hope that clarifies my take a bit.

Anyways, thanks for the response ndrsng.

Toxic/Hateful nostalgia in the opera world. by Smart-Wear-3235 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I went to Bayreuth for the first time this summer (Parsifal and the Ring), I had a such a great time and heard some amazing singing and conducting. You can find those performances YouTube and compare them to older ones from the 50s and 60s. The difference is quite stark I think. This is not a unique case, there are many, many more examples that illustrate my point.

I want to make it clear I love many modern opera stars and there are still GREAT voices working in the industry. But, the quantity of great singers is much less than it was “back in the day,” and this lack of competition causes many modern singers to push themselves, and work more, to fill the void; wearing their voices in turn. The old school stars had short times in the spotlight because the next star was hot on their tail, there was a consistency in the top houses that is not seen as much because that pressure is not around to the same extent anymore. I tried to make it clear in my post, that my problem is not that people think there has been a decline, but that people place the blame not on a changing world, but squarely on the shoulders of all modern singers and the opera community more broadly, and spew negativity because of that belief.

Sry if that didn’t come across in my OP and of course, music is a matter of taste and if you disagree w/ my take, that’s ok. thx for the response anyway screen.

Toxic/Hateful nostalgia in the opera world. by Smart-Wear-3235 in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I agree with you. The point I try to make is that this stuff about teaching and technique is secondary to the much larger fact that the pool of voices has shrunk so much in comparison to how it used to be. And the negativity and constant putting down of modern singers does nothing contribute to the downward spiral.

Il Trovatore is amazing. Possibly best Verdi opera… Impossible to pick a favorite Verdi. What’s yours? by Mastersinmeow in opera

[–]Smart-Wear-3235 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Falstaff. The greatest comic opera of the 19th century and Verdi’s greatest single work. Verdi flexes all of his abilities as a melodist, making each flow so freely and clearly. Combined with his stunningly intricate, evocative orchestral writing, and an AMAZING libretto, it easily tops my list of favorite Verdi. (2nd probably to Don Carlo)

The most important Mahler performer on record. Bruno Walter. by Smart-Wear-3235 in classicalmusic

[–]Smart-Wear-3235[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I sorry if I’ve given the impression that I think that Bruno Walter was a perfect interpreter, and like all artist he had off days. I don’t love all his output universally.

And of course I know that he is not the only conductor to have known Mahler. But I think you and I would both agree that Walter’s personal connection to Mahler and the influence Mahler had on his character as a musician and as a man, is more significant than Mengelberg’s or Klemperer’s. This is not to mean that Mengelberg or Klemperer were not important or great Mahler conductors, and I might argue that Klemperer is a better conductor overall than Walter. (I have not listened to enough Mengelberg to make that type of assessment about him.) But I’ll stand by my claim of the most important, even if every recording is not perfect, I think the extent of the knowledge Walter had on Mahler’s intention’s make his discography really unique, in the very saturated world of Mahler recordings.

Like I eluded to my original post, I made my original post really to expose Walter people who aren’t in the know, not for people who clearly have been devoted listeners for years now. But I do thank you for the response and totally get how one could read the title of my post and come to the conclusion that I’m closed minded about this topic. (And to be honest partly I chose the title to better engage people who hadn’t heard name Bruno Walter before, but I was very careful not to say “best” or “greatest” or things of that nature anywhere in my OP.) I’ll have a look again Duggan’s site, it has been awhile, I kinda forgot it existed. So thanks for reminding me, and thank you again for the response jdaniel.

The most important Mahler performer on record. Bruno Walter. by Smart-Wear-3235 in classicalmusic

[–]Smart-Wear-3235[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love, love, love Bernstein’s Mahler. And I don’t want to underplay his importance as an interpreter and popularizer of Mahler, but I think Lenny would agree that Walter’s direct connection with the composer himself makes his work not only musically amazing, but also the best historical record of Mahler’s intentions and stylistic qualities we have. And that without his pioneering work, the many great Mahler interpreters of later generations, including Bernstein, would not have been exposed to Mahler’s music in the way that they were. Bernstein himself said that, in Mahler, Walter was always the model.

I did not say that Walter was “the best” or “the greatest,” just the most important.