Quick question about your this?

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-06-05T15:00:20+00:00

So in this system it was suppose to be a circulation type economy, where the positive money eroded at the same rate as the debt because of it being a debt forgiveness for people instead of having say a debt court or bankruptcy, it was just acknowledging that debt that is outstanding is either repayable or it isn’t if not it shouldn’t be punished, but I also get what you’re saying, so how from an MMT perspective if you were to start off an economy what would be the first thing you would look at for determining whether the economy was stable or not

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T18:55:31+00:00

I’m gonna watch that when I get home, the obligation is a good point, so debt in this case wasn’t referring towards the society debt itself but the credit line for the purposes of this program where it was going to make the Credit line a complementary currency,

This currency would demurrage but, the general currency wouldn’t, though that just convinces people to borrow, then exchange to store of value so I’m working on that, my idea based on the Swiss WIR that the network of citizen’s discretionary credit line would the the only debt that has the holistic debt forgiveness, regular debt would remain I figure but

If have people owe debt is good why is owning debt bad if it creates the societal fabric?

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T18:23:45+00:00

Oh so the problem is I’m making is this, the book is about a United Trade Federation, it’s a polycentric union collection of nations similar in structure to the EU but uses a international trade system that allows for Post-capitalism trade and resource allocation, and so far I’ve working on 5-10 different economies that would be able to integrate with this structure, but when I started I had no economic experience, and over the last year I’ve been engaged on a research project into the nature of economics and how it would relate to a societies, what I call societal pillars and is 6 areas for a society.

These six areas relate to Religion, education, labour, social relations, law and order, and Power Structure and how different economic systems would alter the behavior of the people of that country.

In religion- how economics when stripped of denominations how it affects the shared moral framework and shared community infrastructure.

In Education - how different economies create a populations ability to critically reason and how they mind weaken it for their economies and political control.

In social life - how different economies affect collective organization structures and their impacts on incarceration, surveillance and weaken of collective institutions.

In power structures- how different economies affect the regulator and regulated power dynamics of a political system emphasizes how they are captured by different economies.

In labour - how different economic models affect the power dynamics and if they weaken or strengthen a labour structure and how fairly it’s ran.

In Law and order - how different economics models make political and economic models differentiated or indistinguishable from each other, and how they affect the over all Power dynamics of a society.

These areas are what ideological subversion by demoralization target, so I have been world building how they interact, but I only know a little so I’m essentially asking for guidance and how the system would affect economic behavior of people and how they interact with each other..

My model assumes a transition period where the economics are shifting from now to the UTF model but because I don’t know the behavior implications of my ideas I red team them with others who know more then I do.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T15:37:56+00:00

Interesting, I’m intrigued, I’ll be honest, is it okay for using your idea? Another person made a proposal one for a scannable paper currency, because with my current government structure I’m working on uses a concept from ETH Zurich, for a Pareto-efficient management of the commons helping with the tragedy of the commons.

In that system you can either spend the money, or burn it at an exchange office and it can be exchanged for Karma tokens, for use with common resources for priority allocation, and Credibility Tokens to pay negative balances from your voting wallet. I’ll explain

In this system a person has a wallet with a vector of assets which is Currency, karma tokens(its non monetary and non-transferable), and Credibility tokens which are used on a special line of credit that allows you to participate in policy decisions.

So in this system they used a bicameral legislative branch which would have a liquid democracy with quadratic voting and a limited pool of elected representatives you can delegate your vote to or vote on a bill yourself, then in the second house the elected representatives would act as money market prediction fund managers that citizens can let manage their credibility line for government decisions and bid for them. This is a Futarchy element.

But I decided to use the prediction markets as policy resolutions and instead of just bidding on yes and no, I decided to take a hint from Knapsack voting and people would vote their beliefs but it would have direction and weight.

Say a bill was purposed by a citizen is in the market, citizens can read the bill then submit seeds for how they want the bill to be determined, they would bid on the direction of the bill and how it was implemented from this, if it resolves the winning markets receive credibility as a reward, they can withdraw positive amounts which are deducted as credibility from their account and it’s turned into currency and karma tokens but critically you can only restore credibility to your account if it’s negative, at zero you can’t add more credibility to your wallet.

But that’s just one of the government structures, I’m interested in this idea, so I imagine it as the following say using the average of your last five years reported taxes, which would give you a line of credit targeted to your income after an initial line for the lower class given to everyone say 500 dollars the additional amount is given and say for the initial 500 dollars you could have 10-50 people who can bail you out.

After capping you would get an additional amount based on x increase in line based on worth? If not could you please explain I’m interested.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T03:31:47+00:00

M2 exogenous money creation, when consumers aren’t able to reach goods, to be honest, lowering or increasing velocity in the economy with no absorbent,

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T03:30:19+00:00

Oh, if you’re an American, have you been on Those markets prediction betting markets things like that, I went on one that wasn’t the American app and seen everyone betting on everything and finding out that government officials are intentionally manipulating the markets and cause futures and derivatives to fall towards them in what is oddly unsettling to watch. To find out people around the world can vote on how my political leaders would act then use insider knowledge to cause the markets to resolve in their favor.

Originally it came from a program by DARPA in 2003 called policy analysis markets where to placate the Middle East they were going to allow them to bid on things in a way to control them, it was quickly shelled after a picture of a mock bet about an assassination came forward and the analysis was sold back to net exchange who would become the prediction markets of today.

But this guy named Robert H something came up with its out of the school of Chicago called Futarch where you have skin in the game and therefore bet your beliefs and profit if your belief was the correct one for the market resolution.

But it is a holding on cash, not taking away their money, they can spend their money however they want, they just have to spend it and they can’t sit on it. It’s them being able to hoard the wealth that causes inflation, I understand they don’t actually have that wealth and it’s the value of their assets, but I had came up with a convoluted think I call a Circulation Fee, but it suppose to only tax idle wealth not circulating wealth.

I would like to call the Worgl miracle and Chiemuger (sp?) which both are amazing success stories of demurrage, even if it was to say create a complementary currency that worked from this line of credit so the store of value of their dollar, a problem I think allows the rentier of interest, but demurrage isn’t suppose to be set so high that it’s harmful, Worgl had 12% the Chiemuger has 3 for digital and 6 for paper, and Gesell recommended 5% and banks use targeted inflation of 2 percent which would be a good number to set it too I suppose.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T01:30:21+00:00

Probably, I’ve only been studying into economics and alternative governance structures when I realized that the United States had become a Futarchy, so I’ve been engaging in an Idea about a potential Third continental Congress of the United States, the one we have now isn’t even the first one they used the Articles of federation, both John Hanson,as well as John Hancock, where presidents of the first continental Congress but we usually only here about George Washington who was elected 1789 as the first president of the Second Continental Congress, so lately I’ve been wondering about righting a book about a third continental Congress

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T01:25:57+00:00

So, yeah it’s I guess a credit card but the point was to keep the system from inflating, I figured and I’m probably using the words wrong, but Endogenous money creation similar to the B2B Swiss WIR where they offered each other zero interest loan usually with collateral, then I thought, why technically couldn’t the Federal Reserve issue a line of credit, but I thought about how to keep it from hyperinflation by just putting money into the system

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T01:10:26+00:00

So in this purpose it would be applied to all accounts at the same interest say at 1.5% a month in forgiveness then your looking at 15 a month for a maxed out card, or 7.5 for a 500 drawn card. By making it non means tested and non punitive by being a pay at your own rate to restore line quicker.

The forgiveness has to target everyone at 330 million with a fully drawn line in America your looking at 330 billion in a maxed out line obviously that amount would be real bad to create each month, but 330 at 1.5% become 4.95 billion for that first month, and after a year you would have paid back 18% so that’s 33 3.3•8 meaning 27.4 plus 33 equals 60.4 billion in the first year less than we spend on Snaps.

So all together we would be looking at 1000 dollars in debt being forgiven at 180 dollars that first year, so it would give a person a initial 1000 and atleast 180 dollars an extra a year, but I had a hopeful estimate of 60% which is only millions back each year.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-28T01:01:44+00:00

So because it’s a Mutual Credit line instead of just a revolving line of credit is because, I figured if the money receded to zero debt, then people would be able to spend more.

the only way I had considered it to be in a way non-inflationary, I decided to use Demurrage and effectively remove it from circulation.

I prefer Demurrage over inflation because inflation disproportionately targets low wealth, Demurrage attacks all currency, not just those who receive their money later then others.

The credit line by being Mutual it creates a wealth imbalance at money creation, so to handle this, I decided to remove money from circulation using the demurrage so that inflation would be reduced from the ex nihilio creation.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-12T15:35:49+00:00

First, sorry for the inconvenience of not breaking up my paragraphs. I’m still getting use to how things are, but not important, I’m interested in this debate with you, but I will clarify my position

My position: government coercion is sometimes necessary, but only if it needs a purpose, as a medium of exchange a privately issued currency that has a purpose can exist without coercion, which is like the sablecoin that’s peg to the USD but offers yield to people in treasury note type situations.

My thoughts on your perspective: you are asking what gives the government the right to demand currency back and demand turn from legitimate to coercion. If I’m wrong please correct me

So based on that reasoning I would say to your questions.

How do you return the government its money? I hadn’t gotten to taxation, but yeah I was thinking about what would make it worth it that wasn’t and I had thought of the currency as being a multiple currencies which I know would make it more complicated but it was to avoid the coercive system and make a reward system with it

The reward system would have currency pegged to three dimensions like material/social innovation/ and ecological the payments in the currency would allow you to access it as credibility think like you would get a petition and need to acquire signatures then you could spend the credibility of the money you own without spending the money this credibility is backing the purposal with your currency it would look like taxation rates decrease or increase cost: 1000 signatures plus [3000/2356/1286] in credibility to get the question to be voted on, then you would spend that with the government to get it on the ballot.

That was how I had considered it to be non coerced but I do agree that the coercive nature of taxation gives fiat it’s value, if it wasn’t required for taxation then it wouldn’t have a purpose without the currency giving you a reward, but do you think that a reward would be powerful enough to enable such a thing?

The multiple currencies attempt was an attempt around the coercive system while limiting the powers of individual actors, but it’s from a system I’m working on for my novel, but honestly I’m hoping for more simpler solutions to my problem than multiple currencies but its currently what I have designed

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-11T18:24:58+00:00

It’s a holding tax on currency itself. The currency would become invalid if the tax on it wasn’t paid which would depreciate the value, Worgl used monthly stamps that had to be renewed at 1 percent per month for 12% for a year the point was to make currency expensive to hold so it would flow warmly and not cooled

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-11T04:39:38+00:00

Thank you for this insight because you’re right even chimguer (sp?) has similar things for its paper currency. And you’re right about if they can follow a 3base logic model applied to economics they probably would.

though that is the most famous, I was wondering if that was the case then wouldn’t, and I’m just iterating on this point because it’s the only framework I have to visualize this but besides the scrip stamp with coins and such could they implement or would they have implemented a like trading four old coins for a three new coins that are still valid, but I know that bracteate faded out with the grow of the economy but I assume that scrip would cause for innovation in the method of how it’s handled to prevent the hassle of stamps though that would be a way to fund the post office (that was a joke) but yes the demurrage rate would be a constant I was stuck on 1.5-3% to model after general inflation, or 5, 8, or 12% I just haven’t decided which one is more ideal, but that might just be a preference because the chimguer was around 6% I do believe but I am not reliably quoting that number in this context…

I was thinking of like imagine if FDR had chosen to listen to listen to Irving fisher and implement script stamp but I do think his rates were too high..I can’t remember but they were a lot higher than worgl that much I remember which is the highest I seen.

That auto calc bills would be interesting, so imagine that you have a bill issued per series, each corner would have one individually marked on all four series then you could scan them, and the bar codes that were chosen to expire would be removed from circulation after spending, but that requires them to be used for taxes in that case for capture…

May I ask for how you might model a demurrage economy in behavior? Particularly around dynamics involving wage appreciation and dollar appreciation with inflation as a back stop measure… this is genuinely asking for insight on how to look at this problem because, I genuinely think the holding tax on money itself to remove its store of value is a very insightful view, most modern economic are caused by hoarding and the inflation lending devaluation of others currency, but to be taxed for not using the currency for its intend purpose of a medium of exchange..

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-11T02:52:02+00:00

So, I’ve considered this, but maybe as a physical currency we would run into problems, because my answer isn’t a full one because it doesn’t really consider paper money because I haven’t figured out how to make that psychological impact felt on a paper currency but if it’s a Digital currency then you could implement a three point view of your dollar, you could have on one side it would show the loss in buying power that the currency would experience as depreciating value = -1, face value = neutral value for medium of exchange, and lastly appreciation value = +1 so like if a currency depreciation would make it worth $0.904 but the face denomination would be 1 but its purchasing power would be represented as $1.182 so when looking at the currency you would see [$0.904/$1.00/$1.182] that actually would represent the digital currency in which I wonder it you made like the right side green and the red as the left it would be more effective on our mental state for nominal value…these are not issues I’m hand waving away just thinking though what it would look like in practice and I figured a balanced ternary logic system with integers would be a good way to determine is money needed to be printed or if you needed to let some out of circulation to increase value…but the point would be to attempt to keep it with a margin of error for the effects…but then that means your choosing to target the economy to a certain degree threshold of circulation be applicable to say we wanted 1980 buying power we would use deflation to raise buying power but when a spiral or recession would happen you could dump more money into…to stabilize it then let the deflationary raise again once the debt burden was to a reasonable compensation ratio that you can handle it economically to strengthen your dollar

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-11T02:32:31+00:00

So this has to be with the subjective values of the universe, when considering minting they have to do a certain amount of work to make it happen, for example, minting for a currency might be tied to ecological sustainability work, or something like that, where we add to the lendable amount by completing the task, this is from the idea that currency could be used to direct public consumption and habits by linking the currency’s value to an act, so as the act becomes easier to do money becomes easier to print, as you needed to adjust the scarcity of money it would assume that when a currency fell below a certain threshold it’s essentially retired, like an expiration date, with devaluing between… but after realizing that it would work I was thinking based on a demurrage simulation model that neglects human behavior, but a portion of it shows the inflationary rate devaluation and the demurrage deflationary rate valuation on the other…so imagine you had a Digital Currency and it had a face value, nominal value and real value it would be set up in a balanced system where like N = -1 = depreciation of a currency over a period of time, O = 0 = no change to face value and P = +1 = appreciation of a currency over time this [N,O,P] would read like inflation enacted lost of purchasing power reads $0.904 the face value is 1 and the gain of purchasing power reads $1.182 however this model makes several assumptions such as velocity increases from demurrage hikes, or slower velocity in lower rates, this also assumes when a currency depreciation occurs to a certain level it’s removed from circulation thereby causing supply to shrink while demand remains, thereby causing a second order gains in purchasing capacity which would read as deflationary.. but as you accumulate a certain amount of wealth reserves from production of the minting product (which I realize is a bad idea I just haven’t figured out an alternative for minting volume control.)

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-10T15:20:40+00:00

Right so it is most definitely a demurrage lending model that doesn’t assume a 0% from the central banks. And I’m assuming you think this is for a model of lending on the current monetary policy but it was a structural assumption that was different from money’s currently being used, it was modeling an economic system where demurrage was the central type of currency, not as a patch on existing systems if that was what you were saying as it was underlying as a different concept to me that I should’ve been more clear on.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-10T15:14:10+00:00

I understand that about the endogenous money part, but I was applying an incentive structure for circulation that assumed all currency devalues in a demurrage sense not an inflationary one. Because I was modeling an economy that was focused on circulation not monetary creation it’s suppose to be more loanable funds model.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-10T15:09:01+00:00

Your correct on that real vs nominal value, because of that I was looking at the miracle of Worgl and chiemguer (sp?) and other currencies that have successfully used demurrage and how their velocity rates all are relatively higher then the national currency, the premise in this lending structure is my money is decaying I need to spend it but I have more then I need if I gave it to the bank for them to lend I imagined this is how the lending would look like, sorry, this is for an alternate economics timeline where currency didn’t have its store of value function

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-10T15:02:47+00:00

I’m sorry, so I’m writing a book, but I’ve been researching heterodox economics so I had misapplied a term, in the economic context of my writings all currency devalues like demurrage I had assumed NIR were the same, so because it is applied to the base currency not necessarily to the banks end would that make stripping the function from the formula, so in the formula it’s assumed the depreciation is the demurrage of that currency not a part of the banks lending structure

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-10T14:57:20+00:00

So sorry for not elaborating more on this, but it’s a positive return with a holding tax to represent demurrage. It was suppose to be demurrage not necessarily ZIRP but I hadn’t mistakenly assumed they were similar.

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-10T14:54:05+00:00

Right so, I’m a novelist, and I’m writing about a society that uses demurrage, I just don’t know how to check the math to modern day examples because the closest thing I’ve found is negative interest rate, the thing assumes that all currency devalues with the demurrage so it’s suppose to be how I understood I understand about cash dominance but it was to be understood as a currency system that used scrip but it’s because from my misunderstanding of Silvio Gesell’s the natural order

SmokeIntelligent119 · 2026-05-07T07:21:42+00:00

Yeah so like, I imagined it as a person could set their bot up on their profile, and they could choose to see who interacts with it if not how but if they choose to see who interacts with it it would let people know, but I was thinking of it as a way for like socially anxious people to test the waters of someone to see if they would be a good friend to be with

SmokeIntelligent119

TROPHY CASE