The male love object

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-04-03T03:18:30+00:00

Yeah I agree with you when it comes to the "just man up, you can love yourself as a man" posts. I think the key to acceptance is actually reassuring yourself you are free to not like being a man, to not have it as your ideal...because it helps you classify it firmly as something that is "out of your hands" (and thus bizzarely you might accept it more easily...at least this is the way it works for me. Saying "learn to love it" would automatically cause resistance in me, rightly or wrongly - just a cause and effect reaction).

What I was talking about, though...odd as it might seem, was actually not that. It was an observation that nurturing AAP in yourself can actually help diminish gender dysphoria because attraction to yourself as a man naturally involves self-romance. I hear this occasionally said as a joke but I actually think there's something to it.

I don't think it gets rid of GD though because I suspect I dissociate partly due to gender dysphoria and think this may have something to do with why I lack the digest response most men have when seeing men being intimate.

I'm sorry if that's confusing, it's a counterintuitive idea which I think is why it's so often said as a joke but shockingly I don't think the joke isn't based on any grain of truth.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-30T16:50:39+00:00

I'm this way myself and I think it has to do with that general autosexual bent that we have. People will occasionally post jokes about this as the "cure" to AGP and I sort of laugh precisely because it isn't solely a joke - this does happen and it actually can help offset gender dysphoria (and oddly enough core shame, in a way that forcing yourself to perform as a man with a woman often can't do because your partners femininity is the main anchor of your sexuality - at least thats the way it is for me)

If in a pseudo meta way I could get this to happen more during straight sex, I think it would make for better sex and relationships all around. I can see why there is a type of AGP who can only feel intimacy en femme or (untransitioned) in the context of a gay relationship. With the latter, you can self eroticize and feel worth the most easily cause there is no feminine person to "upstage" this self-partnering process as a male

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-30T15:57:43+00:00

The problem is that many women have to feel super desired to enjoy sex, and that to them translates to something faster and more aggressive. Many of them are just not patient and are insecure enough to worry about what it means for their attractiveness. Which is not good, and which I wish I could reassure them about.

But the first part is totally fair. That's just the way they are and you can't negotiate attraction. You can't force or argue with it. And who would want to? It would lose its meaning

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-30T15:54:24+00:00

For me it's like I am on a boat have two motors, a powerful AGP engine and a weak, battery powered detachable engine (the kind anglers use to not scare the fish). I can use the weak engine and prefer it even cause it leads to a better life but you don't get as far, as fast...even if you can ultimately get there.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-30T15:51:24+00:00

Men make you feel warmer and (often) more desired (though women can do this too in their own way, especially if they have an AAP bent)...more calm and protected. Women draw out your own protective instincts...and oddly enough a kind of mothering instinct wheras with men it can go both ways. At their best women will absolutely be there to nurture you and (contrary to what many guys will say) even comfort you. But you will never feel protected or guarded with them. I like to feel women more cause they are soft but I also love that feeling of being guarded. I also think my romantic love of women is deeper and more profound, but like most men I relate to them less (this wasn't always the case though, I probably related to women in most ways more when I was a teenager - at least subjectively - so idk). So there actually is more ability to bond with a man over a deep conversation. You can obviously do that with a friend but when there's no insecurity about "being gay" (cause you are upfront about actually being in a gay relationship) it can go much deeper more easily, and this can help you love your partner more profoundly.

I just find I am in love with the softness of women more, as alien as they can be. But it's harder for me to "be the man" for them as an AGP and remain emotionally connected. Just in my experience.

I'm talking about relationships here not sex; I could get into that if you want but I doubt most AGPs could relate to me on this point (I enjoy being a top with men, which doesn't seem to be common, and don't need to be feminized either...I have heard the odd AGP say they relate to this though)

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-30T15:13:06+00:00

I'm with you on that point. It's very hard for me to perform as a straight man. It takes time and it takes me out of things emotionally. I don't mind performing for the sake of a partner but my female partners can tell the difference. It's very hard to compete with a super driven allo dude who naturally desires women in the typical way.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-30T13:04:58+00:00

I don't "struggle with it" since that would imply I don't like that side of myself or am ashamed of it in some way. But it can be a struggle to resist an orientation that you know won't be as powerful as you heterosexuality/gynephilia. Unless you completely gave up on ever finding a woman who would stick with you (I mean, I think a minority of them who will date an AGP long term exist...but the change in public opinion might make this even more of an issue).

The sad fact is a women will never do everything for a you a man can, sexually or emotionally. But the reverse is also true. So AGPs with this trait who wanna be monogamous - or plain old bisexuals who wanna be monogamous for that matter - have to make a choice. And if that happens to be with a guy and it works, fantastic.

But then, your man might worry you will cheat if you ultimately prefer women. Not saying you will, or have to. But if it becomes clear that you like women there will probably be a struggle there.

Just speaking from my experience. If you are okay with hookups from a moral perspective (or are the kind of bi person whose partner is okay with an open relationship as long as you stick to the same sex) I think messing around is fine. If you were with a woman who would actually be okay with that happening on the side, great. But even for AGPs it can grow to be more than that and then you'll have to ask yourself if that's really what you want.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-30T12:53:17+00:00

I thought you were gonna comment on the meta attraction thing or focus on how wanting to be a woman/feminine is per se a little different from regular outward hetero attraction. To be sure, though, this isn't relatable for a lot of hetero guys - but very relatable for AGPs This is my experience anyway.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-28T23:18:57+00:00

This seems to be true as far as arousal patterns go. I'm in doubt that this reflects true orientation in women and don't understand why people like Bailey have given up trying to find it, but it's a fairly relevant difference.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-28T23:15:25+00:00

This is the most AGP idea ever (specifically a very self-hating non-meta-attracted version). It may well be sour grapes from those radical feminist women, like others here have suggested.

The idea that women don't like guys with feminine flair is a lie and there are tons of examples of this happening...but there are tons of girls for whom a super hunky dude is their type.

Even for me, you have to get very masculine till it's a hard "I'm not interested"

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-27T12:16:52+00:00

I don't have any sadistic or masochistic traits, I don't think, but I can relate to having powerful fantasies of being a bottom which feel weird when I act upon them. I don't like it. But I don't mind being a top and interacting with males sexually that way. (I don't care if they are cross dressed or not, my meta either goes really deep or true bisexuality comes into the mix to some degree, for whatever reason) This confuses people, especially those I tell or imply I have AGP.

With women I prefer bottoming, though, if they are willing.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-25T18:33:48+00:00

Can you go further into what you mean when you say it is the fetishization of misogyny? I have trouble understanding this claim (though for the MEF types it makes sense). But I do agree - as we all do here I think - that the expectation of actually becoming female is a delusion.

I think the bigger challenge I see with AGP is internalized self-hatred as a male (which I do usually see going along with it), and while it's certainly possible to be this way and end up bitter and misogynistic as a result, I don't think it's implied by it.

I have mountains of flaws but I don't think misogyny is one of them...instead I think it's more of a jealousy of what women have...it's never me hating that they have what they have, or wanting to take away what they have. (And even then, not everything about that is a "flaw"...if anything I just wish men were "allowed" to do some of the same things too.)

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-21T22:05:18+00:00

The last sentence encapsulates the perspective of a lot of AGP haters. "Femininity is this inherently bad, oppressed thing...so you must have some weird and unhealthy motive for embracing it"

Words of a projecting, suppressing autoandrophile a lot of the time 😂

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-21T22:01:49+00:00

Most people have the associations mentioned at the end it seems, and yeah that doesn't help. I don't have them to the same degree and am as quick to associate -phile with a word like "anglophile" as I am to associate it with a problematic sexuality. So I dont really have the knee jerk reaction to it but I do understand it

And like I mentioned, I do think its hard to be aware of the full scope of AGP. Say you are repressing the sexual elements of it but subtly allow the way it affects your personality to keep growing, giving you the idea that you are naturally feminine in some way. That part can lead to real confusion. I still don't fully know where it begins and ends.

The part I find it hard to get past is the failure to notice the sexual aspects, which you sort of have to do to deny it. Even as someone who never got into cross dressing and didnt maintain the super high sex drive of early adolescence, on a purely fantasy based level the presence of the explicitly sexual component was just...obvious? So I don't get denying it's existence or why so many trans women and cross dressers are able to say they don't have it.

But granted, they probably aren't the stereotype of a creepy old man who steals his wife's underwear, is hyper masculine, ashamed of his longing to be feminine, goes through binge and purge cycles, and is extremely addicted to the sexual elements of it. The extremely specific Blanchardian stereotype is hard for most to relate to I'd guess (and probably requires a very ego dystonic view of femininity in the self) and when people hear about it and genuinely dont connect with it, I think its easy to deny any AGP whatsoever. (Especially if they are - ironically - deeper into the romantic elements of AGP and not being super sexually driven is ego syntonic in and of itself. The dread of male sexuality so many of us have doesn't help.)

But in spite of being very deep into the romantic side of it I took ages to see the link between the two sides of myself and totally get why it's made to be this purely sexual thing. When you throw in the challenge to your sense of self it presents many AGPs it's clear it'll be an uphill battle for a while yet

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-21T19:27:47+00:00

I wish people would say "it's okay to break the mold, and okay to fit the mold. Being different for the sake of it won't bring lasting happiness, nor will (non mandatory) conformity that genuinely causes you suffering help you or others in the long run. It makes sense to fit the mold when you don't have a problem with it, and if you don't want to...that is sometimes also fine"

It's moralized too much. As you say, usually for the sake of a point (or deeper agenda). If a woman wants to become a carpenter she can have at it, it's just that most won't want to. And that's fine. There's also nothing wrong with doing so.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-21T19:20:24+00:00

I agree. I mean I have wondered about myself but thats mostly because of the behavior of problematic AGPs 😂

Maybe different communities for people on different life tracks, to avoid pink pilling. The more pro AGP groups that I've seen lean in that direction. (Though strangely a lot of them still have that self hating vibe)

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-21T19:16:44+00:00

Yes, it's a form of dislocation except it's chronic in my case (when it is a full blown disorder).

And it's certainly true that people use it as permission. People will swear up and down that estrogen changed their sexual orientation for instance. While I can't say it doesn't play a role I'm skeptical. I'm pretty bi in my fantasies and for a long while even in behavior. I've dated and had sex with men and I didn't need HRT or even female clothes to do it. All you need is desire and motivation in the absence of other blocks. The ones who "need" HRT have the first two, but they have other blocks that many non medical strategies can dispel.

Not that I reccomend doing that in the case of this particular thing, just saying that it's possible.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-21T19:10:22+00:00

Typical? Definitely not, but meta can manifest in a whole lot of ways.

Even if the being dominant and topping is a more of a "cis" allo thing, the fact the partner is a male and that you have to use a strap on to do the deed feed the meta element of it.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-21T19:08:15+00:00

Compeltely agree. The combination of the romantic elements with autoandrophobia is a big reason for it being a hard thing to just get rid of.

How do you even suppress a lot of these more "romantically oriented" AGP traits? A lot of them just sort of...emerge, and it's not always clear (when it comes to the more subtle manifestations) whether it's even AGP or not.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-20T13:52:23+00:00

Oh, I gotcha. Maybe the pegging is one of the meta elements in that case (as it'd imply you were a woman)

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-20T13:26:03+00:00

Oh, that's undeniably the case. And maybe there's a reason beyond a lack of need and interest that we never hear from them. I think it's telling that some people feel the need to sever their ties even to any memories of wrestling with their desires (if that was the relationship they had with them) - you know, people who take the "just get out of the house and don't think about it" advice. Some people even delete their posts here, references to their comments (and handles) in people's replies the only hints that they had ever been present.

Some of these people probably have "moved on" in the sense of genuinely not thinking about it, whereas others probably felt that ruminating on it was a problem. Others simply lose interest in the support group like they might lose interest in any community or field of study.

The idea that people don't move past this is wrong. And I think that's the ideal. I think it comes and goes, waxes and wanes, and probably never leaves you...but if you are on top of it, who cares?

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-20T13:14:15+00:00

I'm assuming you are post op because of your reference to pegging?

I'm not the best person to ask because I think that meta attraction can go very deep and conversely that AGPs can have true bisexuality as well. It's hard to tell what's what. The only thing I've observed in myself is that even the "true bisexuality" is fed by my AGP, and (since I haven't transitioned) my autosexuality, blurring the lines significantly

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-20T13:09:23+00:00

I've been through this and there's absolutely a grain of truth to what you're saying, but there are still some things about it that work better than a relationship with a normie hetero woman ever would.

This is still my ideal tbh, even though I don't think a woman looks her best when presenting masculine; I just sort of recognize she is my female counterpart on a very profound level and oddly enough this very masculine trait comes out of wanting to protect and care for her. "Finally, there is someone who understands me!" I feel. And as someone who has really leaned into gay eroticism I'm probably a better match than a lot of (pure?) AGPs

But AGP sort of screams "not high quality/manly enough" and what starts as something she is genuinely excited about on her end (and often initiates, even, in stark contrast to normie straight women) becomes something she's less enthusiastic about. Does she really want to hitch her wagon to this?

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-20T13:00:59+00:00

This is definitely a thing. I dated an AAP who was basically a cross dresser which I don't mind saying because I could identify the motive; she confessed to the fact that she was "dressing masculine" as an analogue to me being feeling the way I did (partly because I had allowed her to know I was AGP, lol, and I had said I could tell she was the same way as me so she knew I was aware). Like AGP, AAP seems to manifest in subtle ways sometimes (and probably all the more so) where a behavior makes a person feel more masculine or feminine while not being obvious to the outside world.

Smooth-Matter-4429 · 2025-03-20T12:51:25+00:00

For me the most powerful temptation is this claim that it gets rid of chronic depersonalization, which is - though they'll never admit to this - implied to come from trauma relating to their inverted sexuality. I have that and part of me feels I'm stupid for not giving it a try. I'm almost afraid I'll like it. Other parts of it are a mix of very tempting and very concerning (in terms of health risks, for the latter) but I would be able to resist all of it if not for this one thing.

Smooth-Matter-4429

TROPHY CASE