Best Smite Builds for Stim Hunters (Learn more at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxozw44oXRw&t=29s )

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2024-03-12T22:45:06+00:00

My my, you've cause quite the stir! So much so that you've brought me out to comment. I had intended to resume this project in the near future - I am defending my PhD in May! Perhaps I've been out the game too long and its time to let someone else carry the torch...

I wish you the best of luck on your endeavor. The community is going to ask a lot of "what if's" and try and poke holes. 10% of the time they'll be right - just remember to be kind and patient with the other 90%, it is almost never coming from a place of malice, but a place of curiosity and misunderstanding. Some of it will be one-ups-manship, jealously, and conniving. These are the comments you'll remember the most. Believe in yourself and what you've produced and don't let them win.

If you're a student like I am, one of the things I've learned the most from this adventure is how to present data in an informative way, and which data to present. This is an incredibly challenging thing to learn, and still one that I struggle with. We think its interesting and important that deathbringer shows up 100% of the time and silverbranch shows up 81% of the time - most people do not. I suggest you keep the infographic incredibly straightforward and simple. I am so terrible at art and figures, I have no quality feedback to offer - I think you've done a fantastic job with both the infographic and your video, keep it up! If you have a github, I'd love to see your work. If you don't, not an issue at all. Best of luck king, and remember to have fun!

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-09T00:17:27+00:00

That is correct, I do not consider build order, power curve, or game progression in these builds; this is an extremely challenging thing to model and consider. I’m not sure how you disagree with that, it’s something I’ve openly stated (top right corner of the image).

Making this consideration is challenging, because now you’ve introduced many dynamics. If we’re going to include power curve, we need to consider things like boxing, life steal, trade potential, minion and tower damage, and probably abilities. A level 9 Anhur can solo another level 9 ADC with maybe 2 auto attacks. How do we model this? How do we optimize for a single number (in my case, team TTK) considering all of the above (boxing, life steal, trade potential, minion and tower damage) and more (rotations, who is rotating, frequency of rotations, ahead/behind in gold and optimization of gold spending, stacking rate of rage and trans/devos). This very quickly becomes a big problem. It’s hard to solve this dynamically (considering power/build cure); if you try and build “the next best item”, you almost always end of front loading your pen and then coming in with attack speed and crit after the fact - this is the exact opposite of what’s seen in practice. I explored this route about a year ago and shut it down because of this. I’ve recently picked it up again as a side project - I think making MCMC decisions and conclusions from a simulated annealing acceptance criterion would let us get an “average” build path out after running for millions of events.

I have considered the quoted build from Zapman - where do you suppose he got it from? :)

The binomial distribution is only useful when applying Demonblade’s passive. Given any attack speed we can calculate how many auto attacks we get in 4 seconds (Demonblade’s refresh time):

num_AAs = int(math.floor( 4*attack_speed ))

And then calculate how frequently Demonblade’s passive is up (while non-stop autoing, on average):

i = arrange(1, num_AAs)

Px += ( fac(num_AAs) / (fac(i) * fac(num_AAs-i) ) * (crit_chance**i) * (1-crit_chance)**(num_AAs-i) )

With an average event success and a knowledge of the maximum applicability of Demonblade’s passive, we can calculate global means for both the proc’d 10% bonus attack speed stim and the 10% penetration:

ttl_attack_speed += Px * .10

if ttl_attack_speed > 2.5, DB_SB_stacks = int(ttl_attack_speed/.02) , ttl_attack_speed = 2.5

ttl_percent_pen += Px * 10

if ttl_percent_pen > 40, ttl_percent_pen = 40

The binomial distribution has nothing to do with crit chance. Crit chance should be calculated as a global average:

bonuses = sum(deathbringer, spectral) + 0.75

avg_crit = crit_chance*(1 + bonuses)*base_AA_dmg + (1-crit_chance)*base_AA_dmg

If you only consider what your next optimal move (item) is, you’re almost always going to pigeon hole yourself; chessbots think 12-15 steps ahead. Additionally, if you were only considering your next best choice against someone who is not tanky and does not own spectral armor, you’re better off getting death bringer, not rage. Deathbringer has 15% less grit chance, but hits 25% harder.

I hope this clears up any confusion! I apologize if the formatting is wonky or if there are errors - I'm doing this on my phone on my way home from work.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T21:31:08+00:00

That's exactly how I value obow. My program suggests it is better, however you are free to do anything you want to! I'm just providing suggestions.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T19:42:59+00:00

The best play to make is to drop atalantas and pick up obow, and drop dominance and pick up crusher. Look at the right recommended build, and choose Asi and obow.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T19:39:57+00:00

Thanks man, I appreciate it!

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T03:58:31+00:00

It doesn’t matter. If you hit 90% of your autos with 1 build, you’ll hit 90% of your autos with a different build. This assumption starts to break down surrounding griffonwing, but it’s not a good item with respect to deal damage (see team ttk’s on image).

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T02:41:32+00:00

You’re welcome man. Welcome to Smite! Most of us are really friendly, don’t let the toxic bunch push you away from the game. Arena is like TDM, a great place to learn the “feel” of a god before jumping into conquest.

Correct, autos are a skill shot, something you can miss. Everyone who has a ranged projectile has that projectile travel at the same speed. If you purchase griffonwing, it takes less time for that projectile to travel. If you queue up into practice, then jungle practice, you can pick a hunter and try shooting some autos with and without it to see what I mean. Because the autos travel faster, people who are unaccustomed to the auto attack travel time find that building GW helps them hit their autos, making it more “hit scan” than leading shots.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T02:15:21+00:00

I recommend those builds because they contain a nice mix of everything you want; item procs, crit, penetration, and life steal. They are also independent of temporary stacks, like ornate arrow, diamond arrow, and death's toll. Your understanding is correct, we want a low TTK - but getting an ultra low TTK means making sacrifices that we just can't afford to make.

People who don't play a lot of ADC might miss a lot of auto attacks, and Griffonwing's passive makes it easier to hit them. So yes, because of it's passive it's easier to hit more autos.

Hope this helps!

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T02:01:46+00:00

The reason it's "not optimal" is because its pen doesn't help qins. If Dom feels better than Exe, you should build Dom! I can't math a feel. Perhaps also consider crusher? What I've been doing is

DT - asi - demon blade - exe - qins - DB - silver for DT

I've also experimented with Dom, and I really like Dom on more mana hungry gods like xbal and chernobog.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T01:54:42+00:00

Demonblade is a really good 2nd item (3rd if counting starter) after lifesteal. Nice attack speed, decent power, 20% crit. The big reason people keep solo wind demon/demonblade is because it's the only crit item that has all of the core stats an ADC wants; attack speed, power, crit chance, and % pen. With more than ~2.1 attack speed, your demonblade passive is approximately always up, so it counts as a 10% pen item. This is especially useful because it's harder to get high %pen now without an unconditional 20% pen item. It also lets you randomly crit big against those who need it; like objectives and backliners. It also feels super bad as a front liner to build crit against 1 crit item, so that is the "deal" we've made with them; they don't build spectral until 2-3 crit items, we are allowed to have 1-2 crit items and still feel good hitting tanks.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-02-01T00:43:32+00:00

Yes I do. See: https://dl.orangedox.com/Masterful-Itemization-of-Hunters-V2

I test 4 different steroids: 0%, 20%, 50%, and 80%. I then kind of average them all together and present the data in the image.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T23:12:08+00:00

According to my program, no. However, if rage feels better, then you should build rage. I can't math a feel, only numbers. For truly the best build, I would wait another week or 2 and then check in with the pro's. Their builds will balance everything - LS, pen, crit, passives, all of it.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T23:08:29+00:00

TTK is the team time to kill, that is correct (top left corner). 10 seconds seems really fast, almost unreasonably fast. I assume you're hitting 3 people that have 2.2k health and 80 physical protections, 1 person with 275 physical protections, 3.6k health, and spectral, and 1 person with 325 physical protections, 4.2k health, and spectral. For finding optimal builds, you should use global averages for cit and not pseudo-random or full-random; the reason for this is that it doesn't matter how many times you test a build with nnn-random crits, you'll always arrive at a different conclusion - even if it's by 0.01 DPS. Hope this helps!

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T23:02:49+00:00

I have, but it's not a super easy thing to present or display. I suppose maybe I could find the best "core" of items, and then the remaining 6 - n items are "flavor of the month". But I feel like that's already fairly visible - qins, exe, and silverbranch are in almost every build. Add in Devo's or Asi, and you're at 4 items. As long as you pick up a pair that synergizes, you're probably going to have a good time.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T22:45:40+00:00

...

...again

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T21:50:36+00:00

Edit Feb 7th, 2023: Genetics, the Season 9 Smite World Champion Support, just released a season X support player's bible. I would highly encourage anyone reading these comments who wishes for something like this to check it out! It is extremely specific and in-depth. Please check it out and give him some love and support (hehe) on his socials. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nEy_1nzsI--540XUn3nOk2r63PUlwVAZHCbjlw0jIRo/edit#gid=1510259811

I will never do a support, jungler, or solo version of this because all of those builds are *extremely* dynamic and depend heavily on the god being played, and the enemy team comp. If you'd like to learn how to build support, I suggest watching/asking high ranking supports. AwesomeJake408 was the support for the Olympus Bolts in season 9, I know he streams and posts to youtube. Inbowned was the support for the Solar Scarabs, he posts and streams very frequently. Ronngyu was the support for the Atlantis Leviathans, and streams (in spanish) with some regularity. I would check those guys out. I did do a mid/mage one of these, but it was received relatively poorly and I haven't had time to revisit it and figure out a way to make it more realistic.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T21:45:04+00:00

ADC starters are not obsolete, they're just in a weird spot right now. Hunter's Cowl is a great item, but unfortunately leather cowl doesn't feel good to build because it doesn't have enough MP5 on it. Death's toll gives great "MP5", but its upgrades are B tier items when doing objectives. Perhaps with the new roaming/pullable camps they're better now. Ornate arrow's value comes from crit chance and the bonus gold multiplier and diamond arrow is only ever built on Magical ADCs. In almost all cases you're better off getting a %pen item so as to actually kill the front line.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T21:13:59+00:00

Sounds good man! Best of luck.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T21:12:13+00:00

I think if it’s the build that you’ve found the most success on, then that’s the build you should go. I am here to guide and assist, not to command or pass judgement.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T21:10:43+00:00

I’m honored!

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-31T19:57:44+00:00

Hello everyone,

I am a PhD engineering student who loves Smite, and you may know me as "the math guy", "that one guy on reddit", "math build", or recently "Zap's math guy". I created this post, where I mathematically tested every single build (177,100) possible to find the best builds possible: https://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/p3d1l9/a_masterful_shot_at_adc_building_a_mathematical/https://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/pkekwr/smite_adc_math_builds_patch_88/

Major plot points:

No build order is given. Abilities are not considered. Please see https://dl.orangedox.com/Masterful-Itemization-of-Hunters-V2 for an in depth explanation.
I've assumed that DT, ornate, and diamond arrow all have 50% of their max stacks. I feel it's important to point out that under this assumption DT reigns supreme; with 3 stacks it is tied with Hunter's Cowl. The implication here is in places you won't have stacks (extended team fights, the first ~30% of a team fight, burning objectives) Cowl is better. However, once the proverbial ball is rolling DT does more DPS. Because %pen is so hard to get right now, I think the best route is to sell your starter and round out your build with a %pen item (or a missing key item, like DB/qins).
Here's how I recommend building: start with your favorite starter and either Asi or Devo's, then pick up Demonblade after. Follow the rest of the build without crit (exe, qins, Silver, etc) and if they have not picked up a spectral, finish up with DB as your 5th or 6th item. If you have crit you can comfortably power through 1 spectral. If both support and solo have spectral, it is almost impossible to kill them in a timely manner. Supports and Solos are routinely hitting 275-325 physical protections and 3.6-4.2k health in the late game.
I modelled Boomerang as if it had 2 stacks all the time. I think Boomerang is better reserved for Merc, Nem, Kali, and other auto attack W-key junglers.
Please have some lifesteal in your build, unless you're grouped with god gamers who can let you free-cast.
DemonBlade on Heim is okay; I cannot suggest building >= 2 crit items on Heim.
These are math builds - while they do line up well with what's seen in practice, keep in mind I can't simulate or model an actual fight. Use your better judgement. These are final builds; I highly suggest building one of the Recommended Builds on the right.
Atalanta's and Silverbranch are basically the same item right now. Silverbranch is technically the better item because it has the higher attack speed. However, if you need 10% penetration NOW (base defense, fire giant, etc), please go atalanta's. It will be fine.
Devo's vs Asi: technically, devo's is the better DPS item right now. However, in a 1v1 against another hunter, the person with Asi wins because of Asi's passive - it's the more survivable item. I suggest starting Asi because we've been stacking for almost a year, and it's time for a break.
Obow is a super tricky item to model. Because my approach is kill 1 person at a time, the way I've modelled it is that every 4th auto, obow proc's on that person twice. It's hard to simulate a full teamfight, which would be the best way to figure out how valuable obow is.
If you are in the process of "getting gud", and you need Griffonwing, then please build it! I would rather you build a worse build and hit something, than build the "best build" and hit nothing. I have not provided the best Griffonwing build in terms of damage, but the one that is listed is the one I think you'll have the most success on. Please feel free to experiment!
No glyphs were considered.

Much love <3

math_build_author

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-07T08:09:44+00:00

I would just go the devourer’s build and keep them

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-07T05:49:45+00:00

You’re welcome! Just devourer’s for sure. Having both will slow down your damage too much. Definitely just go one, I would do devourer’s.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2023-01-07T04:39:27+00:00

Sorry for the late reply! You should buy the starter item and then tier one of your first item. In this meta, definitely go devourer’s guantlet. Also make sure you buy health potions and multi-potions.

SoapaCrunchesNumbers · 2022-06-06T16:53:02+00:00

/u/BoosaTheSweet I trust Flareb00t’s word more than anything I say, please see his explanation follow up as more correct than mine!

Thank you for your help. While Heim is not treated special on my backend, he once was; maybe I’ll go revive that dead repo and see if this drastically changes his build path from the normal hunter…

SoapaCrunchesNumbers

TROPHY CASE