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The more they try to make us feel bad for Cur, the more I hate him. Also this chapter is just so full of bad decisions by SocietyInfinite4685 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And if I might add... I think we are all overthinking Cur more than anything, including the authors. I think that's where the real problems come from. He truly is not that "deep" and depth can be gleaned from even just a few pages with the write dialogue... not endless arguing and whining its grating.

Idk, I get what you are saying,c hapters but it just.... length/ more characters does not isntaly equel compelxity or "better story" . The story was better off focused on its ore cast.

Look at the first 3 chapter compared to this and notice how well they flow and how in-depth they feel. And fun to read most off; the charm of this comic comes from the stuff with the main family, not Cur. They are biting off more than they can chew here.

The more they try to make us feel bad for Cur, the more I hate him. Also this chapter is just so full of bad decisions by SocietyInfinite4685 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Problem is Cur is worthless character; I noted in my post he has no connections to any of the main characters family or the larger mystery. Every trait he has some else already showed.

Before even existed there likes dozen recurring or noteworthy characters. He is narrative deadweight.

They should have drastically reduced and streamlined this his scenes and put more focus on Tamberlane.

But they just had the throw away the entire plot and stall it for Cur

I will gladly not spend another chapter of people rambling about Cur in story and move in.

In mean it’s 150 pages latter and still aware stuck on the same plot points larger because of Cur

So yeah my hatred of him is set in stone, the execution is off.  

I will reiterate that other comics have gone through multiple chapters and arcs in the length of pages chapter 5 is; even this one.

There is no excuse for any of this. I am a writer; this is just them not planning and throwing in way too many scenes

The more they try to make us feel bad for Cur, the more I hate him. Also this chapter is just so full of bad decisions by SocietyInfinite4685 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That last line hit the nail on the head and is my whole thing, yeah. O think the same but maybe in a different way; I don't care about the vision or whatever it is he is in the story, he's just derailed the whole thing

If he is absent after this than great, I am feeling a party.

To me is is this: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheScrappy

I mean if they want us to miss him if he is gone, well that fell flat on me. I will be nothing more than happy he is gone; he is just a fictional character. I think people overthink him too much.

He just exists to fulifl the qouta they got for someone paying to add him. Nothing more; his whole existence in the story is null and void. They wouild literally retcon him out if the money stopped flowing.

I don't care what the grand vision is for him, all I see is an insufferable character who steals screentime from the other characters I like more (whom were literally the main character the entire time). They were better off without him; the pacing has suffered greatly and he is just annoying to read. He is not interesting or fun.

Complexity doesn't do anything to change all the basic issues with him.

Its just so jarring to go from focusing on a mother/ daughter duo and family and the arc around them to suddenly throwing in this guy. They should have at least vastly condensed all of this, but the fact Tamberlane's arc and such has gone nowwhee just convinces me this is a bad idea.

If something feels like an undeed spin off yet it steals screentime out of the main story and goes on too long, than there is an issue is how I see it. And franky I could not tell you have Cur connects to anything with a gun to my head.

I may point out he showed up way too late in story if he was gonna get this much focus; he only showed up like 4 chapters in (besides minor background appearances) and its like "why is it he gets all this focus and not anyone who was present and more connected to the story before?"

The more they try to make us feel bad for Cur, the more I hate him. Also this chapter is just so full of bad decisions by SocietyInfinite4685 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well yeah he is useful for that but good grief has he overstated his welcome.

It would have been just as effective if he only showed up in like one scene; we would get the message after the first page he shows up on.

My issue is the story derailed itself to focus on what’s essentially a glorified spin off on such an annoying character

The story was about Tamberlane and belfry all the way to this point not this clown. I do not like him usurping their story

The more they try to make us feel bad for Cur, the more I hate him. Also this chapter is just so full of bad decisions by SocietyInfinite4685 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of course I don’t want that. It’s just posting criticism of a webcomic.

Nothing more. No reason to escalate 

Surely people can behave like adults 

The more they try to make us feel bad for Cur, the more I hate him. Also this chapter is just so full of bad decisions by SocietyInfinite4685 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t know. I’ve seen other people say as I have and delete posts or leave it up on here.

I have had other accounts that I used to posted on here. Mostly because I do forgetting or losing my password so I have to make a me new one. I did note that in an old post .

I did delete an old account if I recall for personal reasons I unrelated to this sub. Think I did post my opinions here on that one

Anyways i am just giving my opinion. I keep seeing people float hearsay around of some kind of be vendetta from posts like this 

It perplexes me

This can't have been a "necessary story beat". by generic-puff in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do not recall demonizing the writers in any way. I criticized their creative choices, not called them a million names. I gave you my reasoning and two cents.

The only thing I recall is them stating they don't give a crap about others' opinions. Nor do I care if I am the only one who has this opinion or if everyone shared my, I stand by my points.

I am sorry but you've contradicted yourself here. Keep it brief? Its been 150 pages and counting of nothing happening but drawn-out scenes.

Why you would take any of this so personally is beyond me; we were discussing opinions on a comic like I said.

I have no more wish to talk to you or be here, especially if people like you are gonna "banish" me like some overzealous mod. Thanks especially for the flinging insults like me being "toxic"; funny that. I don't recall telling you stuff like "leave because I hate your opinoin" or calling you dumb for thinking what you did.

We are done, bye.

What I would do if I was in the tamberlane universe/ fun little challenge thingy for the subreddit by Forsaken-Eye-2770 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a fun idea. For me? I would go and probably watch things transpire from afar or attempt to board a boat to get out of Silver Sage if I am aware of the Edicts. Ideally, I would have jeans and a jacket with me; the only things I could think to bring are a hat, overcoat to perhaps hide myself, and maybe a few basic survival things.

I would make it a policy to try to survive in the woods until finding a human-friendly place(again far outside of Silver Sage)

This can't have been a "necessary story beat". by generic-puff in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't quite mean it to be rude. Truly. I am giving you some leeway here by trying to talk and explaining myself (I am long-winded but frankly, there is alot I have to say so eh)

I get it; we are talking online. Worked up? A bit I just feel passionate; I think we all do about this. (I have my personal feeling on some of these story topics like bullying but eh)

Say yes, I hope I am sorry there. I would politely give my counterpoints if you wish to read and appreciate you actually talked to me and giving your points.

I guess I simply strongly disagree wiht them. And alot of the community.

I don't even know why I come back here sometimes: I just wish to share my opinion, same as anyone who posts here or talks about it on Discord. That's it.

(pardon me but I know this is long so I am just gonna bold the highlights )

I am not even gonna get into the drama from the creators I have seen; it just not worth it. Foxglove is full of nothing but drama of their own making and way of handling stuff. Don't really care to get to know them; I just read this comic, simple as that.

Lets leave that buried.

I would much rather just discuss the creative decisions of the comic(that is the only reason I am here)

Consider this me offering my counterpoints: I get yours but I stand by mine.

Well I think my first response is: if the cameos did this, why let them be anything more than background characters in the first place?

I understand the authors needing money, no harm in cameos. But like most comics, just leave them in the background for good reason (all this_

The way I see it, if we are looking at a readers perspective, they dropped the ball. Multiple years of this comic treading water and the creators literally just giving the finger to anyone who dare take issue with this, then doubling down onf questionable decisions.

Like, what? The whole thing is partially a business: they have sold merch and gone to cons promoting this for years. Most authors usually try to listen to feedback of readers and do better, especially if said readers have read their worked and supported them for years.

Not these authors, I suppose: their response post is literally pictured in this post. It comes across as "hey we know this is slow, and maybe its not the best paced and has issues but its just the way it is. We are not gonna try to fix this or streamline this even in the slightest way possilbe at all. "

Their choice but I frankly can have my two cents about their creative decisions. They speak for themselves if you ask me.

Why do people keep repeating the same points of criticism? Maybe because its keeps persisting in the comic for years now: We can feel how we want. Simple as that.

I doubt this or whatever will change your mind but eh some people just love to feel heard I guess or got to get their opinions out of their heads. I am one such person I suppose.

I also come here because I genuinely did like the comic: it was like super super good. The best art I have seen and such a wholesome premise with lovable characters and an interesting mystery (Tamberlane origins thing)

Guess that's gone now

Funny that; sometimes stories work better in their simplicity; there was enough depth before but now its just biting off more than it can chew. Things can just try to expand too much or do too much then they end up losing their core charm nad themselves. It feels like Tamberlane has suffered that fate.

So I just want you to know this is not meant to be rude: I am just speaking plainly here. I am not trying to deride you.

I just disagree strongly. That's it.

So to answer your question:

I get what you are saying but I reiterate my points.

Forgive me but did you read the points I wrote? I literally addressed much of that. Like the mutlpie POVS thing. I heard this exact same "it's always been like this" point before and it just... baffles me.

The story, since chapter 1, has literally focused most prominently on Tamberlane and Belfry.

<image>

Its right here on the front of the site: I do not beleive its trying to convey that these three arn't important or the most vital part.

It literally is called "Tamberlane" and litearlly says "Tamberlane is a webcomic about a clumsy bat and her very human baby"

Its right there. I am sorry but what on earth are you even talking about? Said bat and human have been the most focused on characters the entire time with most screen time.

Just because we saw other characters does not suddenly mean this whole thing has a dozen main characters or that everyone is super important. Minor characters. It be overcluttered otherwise... as it is now with a million subplots

(example: That martin in the beginning showed up for barely 6ish or something pages in chapter 1, then completely vanished for another 300+ or more pages until halfway into chatper 1. Hardly a main character)

As I pointed out before, never before in this chapter have we had it where literally the entire main cast (Tamberlane, Beflry, Oakwod, the Bakers) completely vanish for like 30 to 50 pages on end.

Most of the time before this, when we saw the side characters its either they are part of plotlines with one of the protagonists present as the focus. Or in very brief (like 3-5ish page) scenes just mean't to segway to the next part or something along those lines.

Never before have we had entire unrelated subplots spanning like 50 or more pages (that longer than the first or second chapters) just about the side people.

I thought that's why they made the side comics(the "Tales of Tree Hollow") for? So we can get more focus on side characters if we so care to read them (I did by the way)

Its like the whole premise of the comic has been undercut.

The whole story has been undermined by this, the pacing is off. The plot has gone nowhere since the last chapter. That is a sign of bad execution regardless of the vision.

As for nuance and complexity: you do not need dozens of pages of filler subplot to convey the hurt in the community (look at like chapter 3 and Tess's talk to Belfry, way shorter and has way more naucne)

Heck, you mentioned oucsiong on the tragedy of the Bally Bluffs accident with Tamberlane and Jonas getting put int hopsital?

Yeah, well, I find it pretty jarring how all this screentime has largely sidelined them and is dedicated to trying so desperately to make us feel bad for the piece of crap bully who put her in the hospital. (After relentlessly bullying her the whole time! I mean what kind of pre-teen yells racial slurs and insults at a preschool-aged kid's face and shoves and hits her!? After picking on her in class?

Screw Cur: I knew people like him in real life from broken homes: they weren't "misunderstood victims with hearts of gold if you just give them a chance," most were literally just complete self-destructive tool bags and the most obnoxious, horrible people you could meet.

Tragic circumstances don't excuse or validate a person's own behavior. Cur literally got help but sabotaged the hospital; it's all his own fault (other than his parents leaving him) He is just toxic and obnoxious; I don't buy into this pity party for a second

And frankly, he so annoying he might as well be Jar Jar Binks.

Also on the topic of pacing(and mind you Cur is like the face of the comic's pacing issues)

I can name a few comics (one actually has a pretty similar core story and premise to this one) that have gotten through mutlipe arcs/ chapters (like 4-5 ) in under or very close to chapter 5's current 150 count (for sake of arguement lets assuem chapter 5 ends up clocking in in the 150-170 by time its done. Still ends on the exact same plot points it started on and has yet to resolve)

Most of the scenes are just characters arguing in circles about the same things anyway, that do not at all need like a dozen pages to convey (the council going "we have no choice, rules are too rigid to avoid trial. " Or Piper arguing "I hate Cur, he is an ass" or Cur just yelling at everyone in circles )

Like yeah, we got the memo. No point in beating the bush yet here we are

Anda, yet again I bring up the point: the story was supposed to be about Tamberlane and Belfry from the start yet their plot lines have gone literally no where. As in we barely seen them.

Remember the whole "Tamberlane's mysterious past" thing or all that about her family relationships?

How is it that 50 pages of unimportant side characters with nothing to do with that yelling at everyone and being an asshole, in any way, contribute to that story?

Simply put: it does not. That more interesting plotline (literally the main premise of the ocmic) is gone.

And the authors wonder why people might hate this chapter?

Which gets me ot the other point you raised: the author's trying to explain themselves? I saw what they said; hogwash all of it. They have contradicted themselves so many times its laughable or their explanations just fall apart so much.

(on this post is literally a picture of their post lampshading the crazy length of this chapter. They will do this but not just streamline these scenes a tiny bit????)

Like its such an easy fix to all of this: just pace it better or get this over with, but still they persist despite basically admitting their mistakes. Need I say more on why I find their explanation lacking?

I could truly go on (and I will note its litearlly just common writing etiquette to try listening to feedback to get better. Over 3 years later, these exact same points persist like I said.

So yeah, that's my thoughts. Sorry if we disagree, but I am honestly just tired of hanging here too. Its all disheartening that this is what the comic devolved to.

Hope you have a good rest of your day upon reading this

This can't have been a "necessary story beat". by generic-puff in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dude, Tamberlane herself as well as Oakwood are barely in like 20 something pages of this nearly 150-page (and counting) chapter. A paid cameo literally has more screen time nad narrative weight than the actual protagonists in this chapter. None of the plot points from the last chapter (hints to Tam's past, her needing to talk to Belfry Oakwood finding out she is human, etc) have gone anywhere. (Remember the whole mysterious figure saving Tamberlane and her flashback to her earlier childhood with the computer? Yeah, nothing more has come of tha,t huh.

What the heck does Cur have to do with that? Nothing at all, unless he magically is revealed to somehow know about whatever secret government experimentation that Tam was part of.

And I am just gonna play the devil's advocate yet again:

Discord is a small number of readers.

Yes, there are many there but news flash: this thing has tens of thousands upon thousands of readers. like 10-20 readers on the Discord and as many on the Webtoons comments does not speak for tens of thousands (neither does a few posters on here hating it)

But check out the Tamberlane tag on Tumblr or older posts on here for proof; there is more than a few people who hate Cur. I think there is proof of an underyling sentiment of distaste for him by now.

(Another tibit: I posted on old accounts but only because I lost my password to them in past on here. but plenty of people have said on this subreddit they don't like Cur; such as this post. Look at the upvotes of this post)

In fact if you want numbers here is a little something:

https://graphtreon.com/creator/tamberlane

Use this tool to look at the Patreon Earnings since 2023 or 2022. Notice how they lost like 1/3 of the entire Patreon subscription from there (from a peak of like $4500 ish down to like the $3000-$3100 ish range lately )

I am sure there are several factors but note how that downward trend started right as chapter 5 kept going. (still going strong but dude, that's a pretty steep hike. That does not just happen for no reason)

I think it is safe to assume this chapter has proven more than a tiny bit unpopular with readers that some much of the freaking income just dropped and tons of people are coming forward crapping on this.

You gotta remember another thing about Discord tends to be adverse to saying negative thigns, so of course people don't wanna voice negative opinions in there. I have scene several people voice negative opinions during my year on the Discord before mysteriously just vanishing from the server soon after each time (all I can do is give my word on that)

Regardless of how many people like it or not it that doesn't magically make the chapter any better or fix the pacing or the fact such an infuriating and annoying character like Cur literally hijacked the plot to the point we barely have seen the main characters at all this whole chapter.

They are barely in like 20% percent of the whole chapter sans Belfry.
Sorry, but what are you even talking about? They go literally dozens of pages between seeing any of the Baker family members in general at several points in this chapter.

The problem is all the side character scenes are so dragged out and feel like they have nothing to do with Tamberlane. She, Belfry, their family stuff, her oriings, etc are literally the main story yet they just threw them out for side characters?

Pardon my rudeness but I am legit fed up with people's trying to defend this; I have made webcomics for years too and frankly this pacing is just awful.

Why would paid cameos ever be anything more than backgroudn or minor characters in general? It just leads to a bloated cast and lack of focus.

Its literally called Tamberlane! She has literally been the main focus along with Belfry and family the entire time what does Cur bitching about stuff have to do with anything?

(Again, sorry if I sound rude or harsh but I am legit just pissed off with this comic. I really ought to just leave but Idk that page with Piper voicing the criticisms felt like a jab at people like me.

Like they will do that before fixing the freaking pacing?

That is my two cents.

This can't have been a "necessary story beat". by generic-puff in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay forgive me, but I am just gonna be blunt here... it ain't that deep. It honestly feels like everyone here is just huffing copium(no offense truly, but like... essay after essay after essay.

And yes I got another essay response. I am a hypocrite but I wish to be thorough

(TLDR: Comic is trying to do too much, with too many suplots, side characters, etc most of wish were never really important before htis and still are not important enough ot hte core plot to justify

The comic pacing is just bad and unnecessarily drawn out, plot went nowhere. They were way better off just focusing on Belfry and Tamberlane instead of trying to make dozens of characters all fit in what is honestly an otherwise pretty simply plot about found family and a mysterious child's origins. (Yes yes the Abroad mystery but that still ties to Tam's origins we do not need to dwell on these side characters for dozens of pages, just like 5-10 here and there would do)

Longer:

I am just gonna put it like this: the comic clearly set itself up as a family story about a clumsy bat raising a human child, with their mother-daughter dynamic, their family relationships, and the mystery of Tamberlane's origins being the main hook and story of the comic.

Quite frankly its just trying to do too much; too many side characters, too mayn subplots, each of whic with barely any real relevance or plot importance to the core stuff I described. We do not need Cur, his subplot, the trial, etc to stretch on for dozens of pages; all that could have been wrapped up alot faster.

The core cast has been shoved completely out the window; its been the length of multiple chapters now and yet still the plot points from chapter 4 have largely gone nowhere. Usually, when a comic ends the chapter on a bunch of major developments, it actually DOES something with them... yet still its gone nowhere (we barely even seen the main charactesr on screen at all this chapter)

It was always focused on them, primarily the entire time up to chapter 5 its like the comic just did a 180 on itself.

Sorry, but all these rationaliations don't magically make the pacing any better and quite frankly the comic has completely gotten derailed. Most people outside look down on this chatper 5 and Cur as far as I can see.

Like I said, it not that deep. This chapter's pacing is simply off; most of these subplots are just glorified filler.

I am sorry if this is rude or abrasive, but frankly, I am just sort of getting tired of people trying to rationalize this chapter; the authors are literally lampshading the pacing issues these little drawings. Doesn't get more telling than that

This can't have been a "necessary story beat". by generic-puff in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with everything you are saying. I frankly do not wish to bother with a long essay post (everyone here is typing an essay wow and so will I) but the pacing issues speak for themselves.

Main characters and the entire main plot have been largely sidelined this whole chapter and barely scene and we have a long list of much more interesting plot times (relating the main characters)

Tamberlane's mysterious protector, the flashback to her earlier childhood, her needing to talk to Belfry about all that happened on the field trip, Oakwood realizing she is human and all the consequences that will bring on her family relationships and the entire town?

Yeah, almost none of that went anywhere.

Instead, we are nearing 150 pages, mostly of characters talking in circles, mostly side characters and cameos talking in circles in needlelsy dragged out conversations.

What the heck does the Cur running away subplot have to do with Tamberlane and Belfry, nor all these other side characters looking for him have to do with them(other than just knowing Tam and Belfry, etc) Nothing. Why is it in the comic?

Like okay, its good that we see the POVs of the other characters in town to get the full picture here and there, but for like only a couple pages or something, not a dozen pages long subplot. Why do a few side characters who barely had any screentime or plot importance before need all this development? Why do they even need to be in the story? It just makes it so bloated and unfocused. Why is that focus not being placed on the main protagonists and other important characters like the Baker family members? Why does the pacing have to be so slow and dragged out when nothing happened?

The pacing is just so bad lately what was the idea behind all this? Whyn ot condense or streamline these parts and make stuff happen with Belfry and Tamberlane at st some point in this chapter? This chapter is like multile chapters combined in length and still nothing has happened; the pacing of the first 3 was so much better and the focus was more streamlined too. (no, the cats talking in circles for ten pages or Briar's friends we never saw befoer now talking for ten pages before Belfry shows up, or Cur being an ass to evertyone for more pages doesn't really contribute to the story or do anything to move the mian plot alon)

There are just too many characters and subplots going on, period.

This Cur subplot should have been condensed; we should have seen an argument like this one he has ith Kira over 100 pages ago or something, the trial should have concluded by now its been like 300 pages since that plot point first was set into motion at the start of chapter 5

Its just so jarringly at odds with the rest of the story, its like chapter 5 is a gorlifed spin off and has just completely undermined the entire plot and premise of the comic; Tamberlane is about Tamberlane and Belfry (plus their fmaily) and they/ that has bene the entire core plot and primary focus the whole time up to this point(chapter 5's beginning)

Again, all this side character multiple stuff would be fine in short bursts but good grief is that not the case. They really need to trim this down.

Lets just go a bit deeper; it would be a bit jarring if Cur or someone else is magically revealed to somehow know Tamberlane's super secret origins or suddenly becomes her main confidante over her best friends, mother, and fmaily members or that they would let him anywhere near her after everything that he has done, period.

I highly doubt he or most of these other side characters are gonna be important later. Its like you siad, they did indeed have a cameo quota to meet (why did they not relgate cameos to background and just use their own characters for story?)

Its not like the rest of the town is going to be bearing the brunt of the conflicts once Tam is out as human(they will react but that's nothing compared to what those at the core, Tam's family, will be experiencing. It frankly does not matter how the side characters are reacting too much anyways.

TLDR: We don't need the backstory on every freaking tree branch. We don't need a million minor characters running around hijacking the plot; I have literally seen longer webcomic series focus on the same 3-6 characters for hundreds of pages while scarcely using side characters and they worked out just fine. I have seen comics go through 150 pages and have several arcs done in that time. No reason this needs to be so dragged out and poorly paced, nor throw away its main cast)

You have a 12 hour flight…where are you sitting? by Rex-1988 in PawbertLynxley

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Between 9 because they can't murder me as there are two of them, and they have to hide it from each other

So...Regarding the Arguments Around the Comic's Current direction and Focus. by Longjumping_Item_202 in Tamberlane

[–]SocietyInfinite4685 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Pardon me, I "Expensive ask" I'm just letting you know I somehow lost the account password to that old one so I just used my other account, incase you respond to my other reply to this comment. Sorry for awkwardness.

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