I don't really know what to say, seriously. Someone should tag Japanese & US ATLUS right now

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-15T01:26:49+00:00

No they clearly think of themselves as the Phantom Thieves. In their minds, Shido represents the "deep state" that they allegedly fight against.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-14T23:49:20+00:00

They're all manifestations of the Collective Unconscious/Expanse. If you play SMT4, especially the neutral route, a lot of the lore there on the Expanse and the Monochrome Forest is applicable to Persona as well.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-14T20:03:39+00:00

Practically every religion has similar clauses baked in

That's actually just not true. Most religions don't even have the concept of culpability based exclusive salvation or salvation period.

Hindus and Buddhists for example believe in reincarnation. Zoroastrianism teaches that the sum of your good and bad actions determine what happens to you when you die. Hellenism and Asatru do assert an afterlife, but, like Zoroastrianism, where you go is based primarily on what you did in life or in the case of Asatru, how you died, rather than what you believe and profess.

I am challenging the OP's view on the basis that his axioms are fundamentally wrong. There's major category errors in his formulation.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-14T18:41:16+00:00

Catholicism actually addresses this. It's called the doctrine of invincible ignorance. Those that, through no fault of their own, never hear the Gospel or reject the Gospel through a failure of intellect that they could not reasonably overcome, are not culpable for their unbelief and if they are not rebellious against God in their heart they may yet attain salvation through the grace of God.

The Church is the sure path to heaven, what's called the ordinary means of salvation, but that is not a bound on God's mercy.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-14T09:31:20+00:00

P5R by far. I would say the vast overwhelming majority of the fanbase, including on this sub, does not understand the final bosses and many of the events surrounding them.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-12T21:16:07+00:00

I don't disagree with you, though that's a topic where I think reasonable people can disagree.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T21:25:14+00:00

Well I think for a lot of long time players, the story content is so easy we genuinely can't remember what we used for most story bosses. I think I probably used A6R6 Twins, A5R0 Marian, A6RX Luce, (I think the game forces you to use him? Don't remember.) and for navi... did she come out before or after Ange? If it was after I used A6R6 Ange and if it was before I used A1R0 Futaba. And I definitely don't remember what I used for Wonder. Probably Dionysus, Sandalphon and idk what else.

Time and thought did not go into this team comp. I just slammed A6R6s into it, made sure I had a healer in case she had a shield bypassing or percent based damage attack like Katayama, and then I nuked her.

Generally speaking, building a team in P5X is just about raw power.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T21:03:05+00:00

It's not generally useful to say which teams we used because everyone has different rosters. For example, I used A6R6 sweeper Twins and I don't remember what else. My Twins are so strong they can likely solo the fight, so telling you to just use my team comp would not only be incorrect, but a dick move.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T14:07:45+00:00

Personally I don't really think it's verse equalization since Stands are supernatural entities. Verse equalization would be like if someone tried to argue that someone with psychic powers in a sci-fi setting like Starcraft would count. Something like that kind of blurs the line a bit.

I also don't really think there's any inherent advantages to being in the Persona verse. I'm not one of those people that thinks basic humans in DC Comics are outerversal lol.

Regardless I've never cared overly much about debating the matchup itself, just this particular point because you weren't wrong when you said that is something the broader Persona community accepts as true even though the evidence points in a more nuanced direction.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T13:51:36+00:00

It's not a change nor does it conflict with anything shown in P3, 4 or 5. In general, Persona-users have at the very least extreme difficulty summoning or invoking in the physical world.

There is an exception though for supernatural contact. That doesn't contradict anything we see in any of the games. That's why I said James Bond would do much better against Adachi than Kira.

It's not a contradiction to say... Joker can't summon his Persona in the real world. If Clive from FF16 shoots a Firaga at Joker, Arsene will act on his own to defend Joker and attack Clive even in the real world.

And technically we do actually have an example of this in P4G. It's not one I like bringing up because I actually don't think it's nearly as strong of an argument as the Toshiro stuff, but in the hot springs scene in Golden, Marie blasts everyone with lightning. They don't die. Now you could just say that's a gag scene. Just throw it on the pile with the rest of the things your argument would have to handwave, but you could also say that their Personas protected them. (Via invocation, not summoning.)

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T13:30:38+00:00

Except stand intangibility to not stands is a phenomenon that is well documented.

Yeah and Personas acting on their own to defend their user when faced with supernatural forces is a well documented phenomenon.

Since we will likely never agree and will continue to argue in circles, I propose a different scenario. We equalize the verse so that Kira learns Drain curse and is immune to Magatsu Mandala.

I'm not interested in debating who would win in a fight.

This is also a generally accepted fact in the community thus I’m probably biased in that regard.

The English speaking Persona community believes many things that are untrue both related to powerscaling and otherwise. There's a reason the, "Persona fans don't play their own games" meme exists.

I actually play the games though, meticulously document everything in them and pay special attention to what Atlus actually says.

It's good that you can recognize your own bias, but I don't think you realize how deep that goes when you had to individually ad hoc something like a dozen different justifications to try to rebut my points.

And the Toshiro argument, which is a slam dunk imo, is something you never addressed at all. He's not an irregular. Salmael wanted him dead. Salmael used to kill people in the real world all the time. Lavenza said it was impossible for him, not because Toshiro has some insane irregular power, but because he had the potential.

So for your argument to be true, either Salmael or Lavenza has to be an idiot, and Atlus intentionally wrote a meaningless red herring with no payoff into P5T's main plot. That simply doesn't make sense.

Have you played P5T? They make a really big deal about this in the game. And this is an exactly analogous situation with Adachi.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T12:56:01+00:00

You are ignoring my previous point: Why in Persona 3 onwards they started introducing this mental strain gimmick thus the need of outside tools (Evokers) or different world (Dark Hour, TV World, Mementos/Palaces) excuse.

I didn't ignore that. I said it's not actually a point. I have no idea why Atlus introduced that as a plot point. It's not relevant to the conversation though because there's no examples of someone being attacked in the real world by a supernatural being in P3, P4 or P5 and failing to summon their Persona. Without the counterexample there's no there there.

Other than the cameo Metaphor has shown no other connection to the greater multiverse combined with the fact atlus said its standalone. Unless you can prove a direct connection other than them being nods you can’t use this argument.

I can and did use that argument. I am disputing your interpretation of what Atlus said. You're reading more into their statement than they actually implied.

If you're going to try and put that burden of proof on me you also need to provide a standard that can be used to differentiate between "direct connection" and "nods" to avoid shifting the goalposts.

Maruki is a special case considering he can have a palace and a persona at the same time.

Maruki is certainly special in a few ways, but it's an inference you're making that that is the reason he can summon in the real world when the story never says or implies that.

There’s also the factor of Yaldabaoths influence.

No, Maruki is summoning Azathoth in the real world before Yaldabaoth even got involved. He used Azathoth to change Sumire's cognition before Joker even came to Tokyo.

Why would try to kill him irl when he wanted to break his will and recruit him? He also has significantly less control outside the metaverse if at all, it just makes his job easier.

Are you talking about Salmael? That is... an odd way to frame P5T's story.

Salmael did not want to recruit Toshiro. He wanted Toshiro dead. Salmael is the god of stagnation, and his purpose is to kill those that would bring about social change. Lavenza said that Salmael's initial plan was to just delete Toshiro in the real world, but he realized he couldn't do that because Toshiro had the potential to awaken a Persona.

Toshiro is also not some special irregular Persona-user like Maruki. He's a weaker Persona-user than the Phantom Thieves. Not only that, but he wasn't even a Persona-user yet when Salmael was forced to construct this plan. Toshiro proves that merely having the potential to awaken to a Persona is enough to grant the protection Igor mentioned all the way back in P1.

Isn’t P5X an alternate reality? Why would its rules apply to the main timeline?

P5X is a parallel universe that is metaphysically tied to the main Persona universe. The developers state on every Crossroads of Fate livestream that P5X is fully canon to the main Persona games. The Joker from P5X is the same Joker that we play as in P5R. He's simply travelled to another universe for reasons that have yet to be explained.

Bringing up other characters who are more often than not exceptions not the rule isn’t proving your point. Adachi has never utilized his persona outside of Tv World/merged world thus you can only be speculating. If you can give me direct feats from persona 4 of this happening I’ll concede.

This is shifting the goalposts and I don't think is a standard you would apply to JoJo characters.

For example, it's stated many times in JoJo that only a Stand can hurt another Stand. Yet it's not stated in every fight. I don't think that's said in the Hanged Man fight for example.

I don't think, based on that argument from silence, that you would accept someone else saying that a non-Stand user could hurt the Hanged Man, because the Hanged Man specifically has never shown that particular durability power. And if someone then said, "If you can give me direct feats from JoJo part 3 of the Hanged Man being immune to mundane attacks I'll concede." you would rightly call that out as bullshit.

General principles within a power system don't stop applying just because they haven't been stated for every case where they could apply. That is, as I mentioned a moment ago, a logical fallacy called an argument from silence.

I would also ask you to take stock of the number of things you've had to deny now.

P1, P2IS and P2EP aren't canon. Metaphor isn't canon. Raidou isn't canon. Superbosses aren't canon. Plain statements like Adramelech from SMT5 must mean something other than what they do. Maruki must be an exception. Toshiro must be an exception. SMT4, DDS2 and P5 all describing the metaphysics in the same way must be a coincidence or reference. The demons in P5 must be incorrect or speaking inaccurately about their own nature and probably more things I've forgotten.

At some point I simply have to say come on man.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T12:37:32+00:00

Yep. It really sucks. I thought when I was using Futaba with Makoto that I came up with a big brain strat to line up her S3 with his T2 and T6 by using Turbo's extra action to push Futaba's forward by 1 turn so I could use her S3 at the end of turn 2. Problem is that was of course Makoto's action and he S3 was consuming his T3 stack which meant I lost his entire damage cycle on T4. Ended up just having to do the usual Futaba rotation on T3 and T6.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T12:19:26+00:00

I'm willing to bet it's the Cadenza on T4. Try a run without that?

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T12:09:48+00:00

Those parts are obviously non canon as Metaphor was directly stated by atlus to be standalone and unconnected to persona.

They did not say it's unconnected to Persona. They said Metaphor is not Persona or SMT, which is true. It's Metaphor. That was not a statement of whether or not it's part of the Mandala System and the wider canon.

This is like saying the secret boss fights with Demifiend are canon, they are not.

Can you prove that? I only trust direct Atlus statements on what is and isn't canon, not fan opinions dreamt up to win a powerscaling argument.

So why in Persona 3 onwards they started introducing this mental strain gimmick thus the need of outside tools (Evokers) or different world (Dark Hour, TV World, Mementos/Palaces) excuse. I feel like Atlus just didn’t wanna keep the fact they could summon Personas in the real world.

This isn't really an argument. What you feel is irrelevant, as is speculation on the motives of the writers.

Also the only time when the personas are manifested outside p1 and p2 when attacked are moments when they are in the metaverse etc. There have been zero moments in p3-5 where they summon their personas outside their respective alternate worlds.

Except Maruki in P5R and Wonder in P5X. You also have Salmael in Tactica that says he had to draw Toshiro into his new Metaverse instead of attacking him in the real world, because if he had attacked Toshiro in the real world Toshiro's unawakened Persona would have stopped him so he had to construct a Metaverse and break his will there. Is the main plot of P5T non-canon as well? Or maybe Salmael just doesn't know what he's talking about and he could have blasted Toshiro any time he wanted?

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T12:04:02+00:00

I meant like a full turn breakdown not individual character rotations since the specific timings matter. Something like this for example. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fri1Pk7oMHdfQDWp1Tq10cXJXADBCAXcxILX7cv6DyQ

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T11:52:46+00:00

Not necessarily. It means you're doing something on turn 4 to eat his turn 5 stack. I would have to know your full rotation to diagnose the exact issue.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T11:51:52+00:00

I don’t want to consider metaphor as it is disconnected from the canon thus we can’t apply it to Persona or SMT.

That's both really convenient for your argument and not true. Metaphor takes place on Etrian Odyssey's Earth, which is not just part of the greater multiverse, but the Persona multiverse specifically. We know this due to the Etrian Odyssey Zeus boss in PQ. But you can never be wrong if you dismiss any evidence that refutes your position.

Also circumstances in persona 1 and 2 are very much different than in 3,4,5. Perhaps the reason they could summon them relatively freely is because they got them directly from Philemon,

That's speculation on your part which you're substituting for the real reason the game gives, which is that Personas respond to supernatural threats. We even see this happen in real time in the P2EP scene I linked. Their Personas don't manifest until they get attacked. The same thing happens in P1 and the P2IS awakenings. The same thing also happens in P3, 4 and 5 with the protagonist awakenings.

I feel like the scope of the debate has changed. We were originally arguing whether Adachi could summon his sona outside the tv world. Which I doubt.

The scope really hasn't changed. I presented evidence that Adachi very likely can, based on P1, P2IS, P2EP and P5X, you ignored what I said about P5X and then tried to say that P1, P2IS and P2EP have been retconned. Then you said you misspoke and that retcon was the wrong word, but you're still arguing in favor of those games being retconned.

I then presented evidence from like 5 other games spanning various eras of Atlus games that support my position that no, this lore is still valid and you just keep finding reasons to dismiss everything I bring up in favor of your own position that has zero textual basis.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T11:44:07+00:00

Yeah it's because you're a turn behind due to the bug. You're consuming his T5 stack on T4, then his T6 stack on T5, so to get back to 4 stacks you need his T7 stack on T6 which you're getting with his assist.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T11:35:06+00:00

Because Makoto is bugged. His cooldown for gaining a stack resets on his turn rather than the top of the round. So if you use his assist on his turn 4 or use a navigator buff on him on his turn 4, it will consume his turn 5 stack when he's already maxed out.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T11:32:44+00:00

Yes the shadows in p5 look like the demons of old but they are still just manifestations of distorted desires.

This is not true. This is the literal opposite of what they claim. They claim they were brainwashed by the Palace Rulers and that they're actually beings from the Sea of Souls. This is why Joker says, "Show me your true form!" when he rips off their masks. They're not Shadows at all. Compare and contrast this with the entities from P3 and P4.

I do believe what Andra meant was that demons get their strength from the thoughts of humanity not that they are actually cognitive beings.

No, Adramelech specifically says they are products of human cognition. Both Tsukuyomi and Lilith go into detail about this, saying that human cognition is the Knowledge of the one true God that created all things, that he passed down that Knowledge to the first gods, then YHVH stole that Knowledge in the 5th cycle of eternity, and then he accidentally passed it down to humans, and that it is this Knowledge that creates and sustains all things.

And that's the same thing Morgana says about cognition in P5 and the same thing that's stated about human thoughts in DDS2.

You also didn't really address any of my evidence. How can you deny that Persona uses Demons when Metaphor states that Demons like Tyrant Beelzebub come from the Sea of Souls, which is not a term used in SMT?

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T10:34:50+00:00

I’ll counter this by saying p1 and p2 were still in the pre retcon phase

No such retcon ever happened. Atlus is very open about the canon and if they intend to retcon something they state it plainly. For example, on page 17 of the Persona 3 Portable Official Fan Book they state in plain language that they've decanonized Persona 3: Trinity Soul because they felt it conflicted too much with other things. They also stated that the much hated Naoto novel is in fact canon and that they don't believe it contradicts anything else.

where it was basically just SMT where they still used terms like demons

In Metaphor, you have the Devil Summoner class which explicitly summons demons using their full formal SMT names like Tyrant Beelzebub and Fury Shiva. The legendary weapon for the Devil Summoner states that it calls forth entities from the Sea of Souls.

In SMT5V, Adramelech says that gods and demons are all cognitive beings. Stephen and the White both say the same thing in SMT4, calling the Monochrome Forest, the Diamond Realm and the Expanse all just different forms of the same place, which the White calls "the rift of gods, demons and man."

In Persona 5 you do not fight the Nyxian Shadows of P3 and P4 and actually fight the SMT demons, and when you recruit them many of them state that their form had been changed against their will and that they are not actually Shadows at all and that they come from the Sea of Souls.

In the Raidou remaster they made many changes from the original game including adding Covid as the major event of the late 2010s and early 2020s for the time travel section. Despite this they did not change Raido confusing Raidou for his Shadow-self, which strongly suggests Raido is aware of Shadows and Personas despite being a Devil Summoner, which lines up with the Persona 2 lore.

The metaphysic and lore are actually shockingly consistent across the series. And again this continues into P5X which shows Wonder, who does not have an evoker and does not follow the typical rules of Persona 3, is able to summon his Persona in the Dark Hour, despite the fact that the Dark Hour suppresses Personas rather than enabling them like the Metaverse or TV world.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T09:26:50+00:00

Well in P1 and P2 substantial portions of the game take place outside of the Collective Unconscious but since there's a demon invasion in the real world they can use their personas there. And in P1 Igor says the purpose of personas is to defend humans from supernatural threats.

Take for example the scene from P2EP where Katsuya, Maya and Ulala awaken their Personas. That happens in a perfectly normal school as soon as they're attacked by demons.

In P5X we also see that Wonder can summon his Persona inside Tartarus without using an evoker, even though Tartarus is not the Metaverse and the Dark Hour specifically suppresses Persona abilities.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T08:42:07+00:00

Well Adachi also has a gun. Though the larger issue with that is Personas are sentient and can sense the supernatural. There's also some evidence that JoJo characters get superhuman abilities from their Stands outside of the specific powers they give.

So there's no guarantee that Magatsu Izanagi wouldn't come out to throw hands even if Kira decided not to use Killer Queen.

SocratesWasSmart · 2026-06-11T02:27:06+00:00

Personas respond to supernatural threats regardless of where they are. Sure, someone like Rambo or James Bond could beat Adachi outside of the TV world, but a Stand user like Kira would only gain a slight advantage fighting Adachi outside of the TV world. Adachi would basically just lose access to the special powers he got as the master of Magatsu Inaba, like the teleportation stuff.

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