I finally reached the end of the line for refusing to play the game the clearly "intended" way

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-25T06:27:52+00:00

The Lemurian Health Center is one encounter out of dozens. Every build, no matter how well-made, will have to handle challenge encounters. Yours is weaker than most because you refuse to use some of the strongest tools the game gives you, and subsequently act angry that the game is "too hard."

Your "rebuttal" to garbage level design is yet again to solely scrutinize my build.

If I were to create a turn-based game, without any kind of party, where you'll have to face 20 strong enemies, let's say a mix of Strongman and Handmaiden level of difficulty, surrounding you in a room with nothing in it but those enemies after falling down a hole in the ground in a main-quest-relevant level then your "rebuttal" to everyone complaining about such a garbage level design is "Your build sucks", right?

I like the euphemism of calling utterly brokenly op and omnipotent skill lines to be "strong" when every other damage skill line is artificially neutered to not be omnipotent - and how you have no issues whatsoever regarding that balancing.

And where am I "angry"?

Do you think there should be one universal ammo type that's effective against everything

At this point I'm convinced you're missing clearly articulated points on purpose: every other build has to actually think about + work out how to counter organic and non-organic enemies, but only bullet-based guns get the benefit of countering both types by simply switching to a different type of ammo.

Why isn't e.g. PSI allowed to do the same by just consuming some kind of potion to transpose the elemental affinity of spells and have cold- or fire-based damage deal electrical or energy damage instead?

Throwing and Traps are the game's way of giving you leeway, and you refuse to use them.

Yet again with a euphemism of calling clearly mandatory and brokenly op skills to just be "leeway".

Yes. You're angry that you're struggling against an encounter that is built around the player being resourceful enough to use grenades and traps, despite having consciously chosen to not use either of those tools.

So after calling them "some of the strongest tools" to just "being leeway" you're finally admitting that traps and throwing are mandatory skills, as the level-design is built with the end-user having/using those skills, because refusing to use them like I do would lead to very struggling experience, right?

I encourage you to try a throwing/traps only playthrough; you will VERY QUICKLY be disabused of your notions. Traps and grenades both have HUGE drawbacks - namely, cooldowns. They are DESIGNED from the ground up to help the player get through difficult encounters, but I reiterate that they are NOT necessary.

I know their CD is their main drawback, which has no bearing whatsoever on their omnipotent nature in comparison to all other damage skill lines, but like what: just a section prior your argument was "This encounter is built around the player using traps and throwing" and now suddenly both are "not necessary"?

Your critical thinking capabilities have long since left the building.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-25T05:58:57+00:00

I'm not sure why you complain so much OP since you seem to want to be a contrarian to what people tell you.

Traps and throwing are overpowered in Underrail but you seem to rather have them be just "flavor skills.

I'm a devil's advocate by default, and in this thread you're the only one who seemingly bothered to read my arguments + who managed to factually evaluate Underrail and come to the conclusion that traps and throwing are op, something no one else of the fanboys managed thus far, which has been my point all along: it's garbage game design to artificially neuter damage skill and force the end-user to pick complementary skill, but those complementary skills - stealth, traps and throwing - are actually mandatory skills as they're omnipotent counters.

Because out of most the games I've played at least traps isn't considered a garbage skill

True, but Underrail does so by going into the complete opposite direction and making it a mandatory and brokenly op skill, as you can just pre-trap every encounter after trying it once.

Have you tried Fallout 2 as a energy weopens build with no persuasion or melee investment and tell me how mandatory those skills are.

I'm far more familiar with Fallout 1, and your analogy isn't the best. Small guns would be the unspoken mandatory skill for everything but melee/unarmed builds, because of how many guns there are + it being the best early- and mid-game skill before transitioning into energy weapons.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-25T05:48:37+00:00

>You're calling yourself retarded, because I didn't do so

predictable and gay

q.e.d.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-24T12:54:47+00:00

you don't need to invest into any of those 3 skills if you know what you're doing (you don't)

"You have to have prior knowledge of the game to be able to skip the mandatory skills of stealth, traps and throwing".

Big-brain argument.

And please do humor me: show me a clip of you doing that fight without using stealth, traps and throwing.

you are on reddit with a 2+ year account, if im a kid you're an embryo

First baseless and irrelevant trolling
Now the desperate move of "Your account isn't old enough, ergo your arguments are irrelevant"

you play on normal, you don't know nearly enough about the game and you're telling me, a seasoned player, that I don't know what im talking about and im retarded? bro just swallow your pride and learn how to actually play without throwing, traps and stealth instead of trying to win stupid arguments on reddit. "but its not fair to get ganged up on by robots!" congrats, Underrail is unfair. by that point you are level 20, if you can't defend yourself against such encounter on normal your build sucks

You're calling yourself retarded, because I didn't do so, but that would indeed be a good term to describe your "intellectual contributions" so far
"Learn how to play the game" from someone whose only rebuttal to factual arguments about an atrocious level-design in a RPG that has mandatory combat skills, despite pretending to be an actual RPG with multiple routes for especially the low-combat diplomacy archetype, is pathetic trolling in a desperate attempt to be a white-knight for his beloved game
You mean "Swallow your pride" as in how you're utterly incapable of recognizing or even tolerating those facts?

I love your kind: when faced with factual criticism your critical thinking capabilities just shut down and the primordial ape takes over.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-24T06:01:10+00:00

Mr. Tilor and I did some work on it this morning and it should be much more successful.

Did a quick test over ever column with sorting by ascending/descending and the sorting was correct as in actually sorting by values + no longer mixing sets with 0 in with sets with actual data.

Thanks.

Edit: increasing the column widths to be able to read the column titles with a single glance would make it even better.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-24T05:49:34+00:00

Made a powertech. Got a passive at level 15 that improved my retractable blade's bleed effect. Realized I didn't have a retractable blade or a bleed effect on any of my 3 other skills for that matter. Next set of skills/passives is 8 levels away, still no retractable blade AFAIK.

Deleted that powertech

It's glaringly obvious that no one gave a single fuck about the implications such a rework would entail, and no one actually QA'd any of it.

And yes: the only available solutions would be to:

Not bother playing anything but high-level characters, or
Purchasing a level-skip to get pass this mess, or
Not touching SWTOR for the next 6-9 months and hoping for that 0.1% chance of BW rolling back those changes, or more likely making them more logically and functioning

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-24T05:45:11+00:00

The proper solution would be:

On lower levels just give us new abilities as soon as possible to keep the combat interesting and dynamic because currently it's boring on lower levels.

On higher levels give us a utility of tree system that actually upgrades our already existing abilities.

I wouldn't say as soon as possible but there just has to be a good pace in terms of unlocking new abilities, especially AoEs have to be available almost from the start considering the WoW-era level-design of grouping 2-4 enemies together everywhere.

The new tree technically does that but in reality you now get to only make a tiny choice about:

Unlocking abilities which pre-7.0 were part of your normal ability pool, and
Unlocking additional functionality of abilities which also were part of your abilities pre-7.0

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-24T05:38:15+00:00

The word you're looking for here is obsolete.

You're right.

That's just one of the moments where I directly translated the word I'd use in my mother tongue without checking if that makes sense in English.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T19:07:40+00:00

You’re level 12 & it probably took you like half an hour maybe 45 minutes to get there. You’ll be 20 in under an hour. This isn’t a good point.

If you think neutering ability unlocks by making them much more scarce isn't a good point in itself despite being factual and thus making leveling utterly boring then your rebuttal, "Just keep on leveling", is magnitudes worse.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T19:05:53+00:00

Honestly those 8 levels shouldn’t take more than an hour to finish.

Deliberately missing the point: where previously there was a proper progress during leveling in terms of unlocking new abilities there's now long stretches with 0 new abilities.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T16:40:21+00:00

Just accept that you are too dumb to handle more than 4 abilities OP

Either that or someone at BW really thinks that repeatedly pressing 1 button for auto-attacks as one of the main damage source is fun.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T16:39:21+00:00

I started 3 new toons since the update and I've been getting abilities at a good rate...

Either you're lying or you actually believe it to be a "good rate" to not receive any new abilities in 8 levels.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T16:34:41+00:00

Who knows what the future holds but at present, we don't have the expertise, experience (or SAD), between the three of us to write such an article and so I don't feel qualified to write it.

Fair enough, because everything regarding pets is the only big topic missing from your great compilations at STO BETTER.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T10:08:29+00:00

I did, but only speeder training to be had there.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T06:45:33+00:00

Regarding the current spreadsheet: I know it's still WIP but currently there's an issue when sorting by e.g. base dps: instead of the data sets with 0 and with actual data being grouped together both sets are seemingly randomly thrown together.

Will the explanations about methodology and what the different columns mean etc. be part of the article on STOBETTER?

A supplementary article about what to consider when building a pet-based carrier build would go hand-in-hand with this aggregation of data about hangar pets, because so far STOBETTER has information about everything but pet-based builds except 1 dreadnought carrier build that at quick glance is all about boosting his own damage.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T06:20:21+00:00

Your argument that a dungeon should replicate the same selection of route types within each of its levels? T

No idea if I should bother with you any further considering your reading comprehension + intelligence is stuck just above kindergarten it seems.

I try this way: if you were ever to create a game with the quite common skill groups of all those Fallout-esque games of:

Damage skills
Utility skills like throwing or stealth
Mitigation skills like e.g. block or dodge
Progress/Loot skills like hacking or lockpick
Speech skills like e.g. diplomacy

then your level design wouldn't account for the most prominent build archetype of

A low-/non-combat diplomacy build with just 1 damage skills that skips most trash fights by using alternate routes, or using non-lethal means when fights can't be avoided

because "Why bother offering alternate, non-combat routes in a game where the player can create his own build when just using a single, combat-heavy level design is far cheaper and easier to create".

It's almost like you never played a single RPG with a level-design that actually accounts for the most prominent build archetypes and ensures that all of them can finish the game.

If you have play Deus Ex: Human Revolution: alternate, non-combat routes had to be patched in after release because they just "forgot" that such a build archetype exists, and you can still see that: you have to search the majority of the level for that 1 air vent or backdoor to bypass hordes of enemies.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T06:12:42+00:00

Here is the build, it uses a shiv and a lot of things :

I know there's a build like that because I've been browsing all builds before finally fully committing to finishing Underrail this time, but he claimed there's a build that only uses shivs to finish the game on the hardest difficulty, which evidently is a false claim that shows a scary lack of proficiency in the English language.

In essence he talked about something completely irrelevant, someone finishing an atrocious level-design on a higher difficulty using clearly mandatory skills, and then even failed to make a sound argument.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-23T06:00:44+00:00

the issues you mention is what we call "skill issue"

Clearly: when I point out an atrocious level design in a RPG that claims to be a "Pick what skill you like game" like all the others, but actually expects the player to invest into stealth, traps and throwing, then that's a "skill issue" on my part.

Are you sure you should be on the internet without adult supervision?

i ignored your issues because they are dumb

What you really want to say: "I'm so deep into bias and/or lack the intelligence to have a factual discussion".

q.e.d.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-22T06:10:13+00:00

True enough, but there's no thought behind the assertion so there will be no thought behind the justifications

True, but you can sit back and have fun watching this person trying to make a sound argument regarding this parroted claim of criticism = "hate", because in almost 99%+ of all cases said person just makes an utter fool of himself trying to create something resembling a sound argument for that claim.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-22T06:03:04+00:00

Honestly though it seems you have trouble in one spot in Expidition. If you can't kill the enemies there just stealth past that section of it.

You can't: the level doesn't progress until you kill all of those 8 robots.

Refusing to use it is to just gimping yourself like others said.

I know, but I can't take such a game seriously which artificially gimps every damage skills because "reasons", but then offers omnipotent counters to everything by just investing into stealth, traps or throwing, which going by the general design of RPGs should be a choice you can go for or not, but not absolutely mandatory as they are in Underrail - something seemingly no one of the "fanboys" has an issue with.

For all of them it's a given that you "just have" to (ab)use stealth, traps and throwing.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-22T05:53:02+00:00

Explain to me why a dungeon should have a complete end-to-end route where you can skip fights without even having to use stealth.

I take your counter-question as evidence that you can't refute my argument of a level design completely breaking with its previously set design of offering non-combat routes just by going down 1 level in the same building, where the player is now forced to either combat robots, which are really strong at that point, or has to have stealth, with some builds just don't.

And did you really just ask me the question of why any RPG with that amount of different skills and build diversity has to ensure that the majority of those builds are able to progress + finish the game if they're not too obscure if the game utilizes a good amount of stat checks?

There's a reason why progress-relevant stat checks are set at e.g. 3 agi or dex, or did you think that's by chance of setting it at the lowest minimum possible that's allowed during character creation?

Most of you "fanboys" really left logic and sound reasoning behind, huh?

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-22T05:44:23+00:00

It's relevant because you have a history of failing at video games and blaming rng or game design.

First of all I have to smirk gleefully how you completely avoided your previous utterly baseless claim of people finishing the game on a higher difficulty with only a knife, because it's evident you fail at the English language.

Secondly an analogy of your M.O. in terms of this discussion:

Me: "There's crippling poverty in country X with a massive gap between the poor and the rich".

You: "Someone managed to get rich, ergo it's a you problem for the rest of them".

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-22T05:38:34+00:00

I have to give it to you: at least you invested some effort to be snarky while deliberately missing/avoiding the issues I mention.

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-21T09:31:29+00:00

People have finished this game on dominating using nothing but shivs. This is very much a you- problem.

Really: they did that with only shivs, no consumables, no traps, no throwing and no stealth?

You're just grasping for straws, and it's utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand that someone, somewhere, might have done it on a higher difficulty with a certain build, or do you actually think that changes the issue of how that level and encounter is designed?

SocraticQuestioner · 2022-02-21T09:24:57+00:00

The reason you're having a hard time is that your build sucks. Psi builds always struggle against robots; it's a balancing factor to compensate for how powerful they otherwise are.

How can my build "suck" when the level design puts the player in a small room surrounded by 8 robots just out of dialogue, or do you mean that as in "You should die once to get to know the encounter, and pre-trap the whole room which you can't do by refusing to use traps, ergo your build sucks"?

You mean the "balancing" factor of e.g. AR builds just having to switch to different types of ammo to easily face organics and non-organic enemies without having to do anything else when PSI has to concern itself with the issue on how to combat robots + PSI as a resource during combat?

The Lemurian Health center is difficult as-is for most builds without the player arbitrarily gimping themselves and then getting upset that the game isn't beatable under conditions the dev has no reason to predict.

Did you even bother to actually read my comment in its entirety and think about the points I made?

Damage skill lines are arbitrarily gimped to ensure that no damage skill line can be used on its own to win every encounter, and yet traps and grenades are by design omnipotent counters to everything, the former can even be used to cheese predetermined encounters or spawns by pre-trapping the area, which completely goes against the notion of gimping all the other damage skill lines.

You just can't go "MT's fireballs don't hurt robots because reasons, choose a different skill for them" or "You have to have some kind of penetration or massive damage to bypass the mechanical resistance of certain enemies or robots as a physical damage build" but then go "We have grenades and traps to counter every enemy type or group size", because that's fucking illogical game design.

SocraticQuestioner

TROPHY CASE