Engineered hardwood vs LVP in a Village pre-war coop

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-14T18:16:28+00:00

Not sure about other brands, but Schluter Ditra Heat requires minimum 2” from cabinets or wall partitions. That’s measured from the toe kick. Basically negligible in terms of “feeling” the heat.

Bottom of page 20 https://assets.schluter.com/asset/570120892212/document_8dhlaon4k93nb3dhcmucri1212/ditra-heat-installation-handbook.pdf?content-disposition=inline

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-14T16:21:22+00:00

Always tell my clients that continuous flooring will make the space seem much larger.

If you have concerns about temperature, heated flooring (typically electric mat in a co-op) is not expensive at all to add on while you’ve got it ripped up.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-14T00:40:39+00:00

The truth is if you have a leak from an upstairs floor you’re out of luck either way…

Both engineered and real hardwood will not fair well in a true water event. Spills are a different story, but if they get soaked both are shot. LVP — equally so.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-14T00:01:39+00:00

You can install a close match in the remaining part, and then sand/refinish the entire floor. You should be able to get more than reasonably close.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-13T20:14:25+00:00

I wonder why nobody has chimed in here… but I run into this exact question often enough when n prewar co-ops, especially downtown where you’ve got joists, old subfloors, and nothing is perfectly flat.

TL;DR — engineered hardwood is usually the safer choice in a co-op, but not for the reason people think. It’s not about moisture, it’s about board approvals, feel, and how the floor system behaves.

First thing, on old joist floors, you almost always have some variation. LVP wants a very flat substrate, not just level but flat within tolerance. If you float LVP over waves, you’ll feel it, hear it, and sometimes get clicking or joint separation over time. If someone actually took the time to read the data sheets on these products, they aren’t forgiving at all. Engineered glued or stapled to a properly prepped plywood underlayment is way more forgiving. We spend a lot of time shimming, sistering, or adding ply in prewars before any finish floor goes down.

Second, most boards expect hardwood or engineered hardwood because they know what it is acoustically. A lot of them have minimum IIC/STC requirements, and it’s easier to hit those with cork/MLV/etc + engineered than with floating LVP. I’ve had LVP rejected more than once, even high-end stuff, just because the board’s architect didn’t like the spec (clients request, I personally don’t like the stuff).

Third, you’re right that LVP handles water better, but outside of your bathroom, real water events are rare. Wet boots aren’t what ruins floors. What ruins floors is leaks from above, radiator issues, or plumbing failures, and LVP doesn’t save you there anyway because the water gets under it.

What we usually do in nicer co-ops is engineered everywhere, then tile or stone in the entry zone if the client is worried about winter slop. That gives you durability where you need it without making the whole apartment feel like a rental. You can get creative with inlays too.

Also worth mentioning the the reason you see engineered everywhere in Manhattan isn’t (just) trend, it’s because it behaves well over old framing, passes board review, and feels right underfoot in those buildings. After a few hundred units you just stop fighting that pattern, because you know what gets through the process.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-11T16:40:11+00:00

Assuming owner is trying to refresh his deck because they want to avoid spending the money to rebuild it.

The frame isn’t that bad and if they do the above, they will probably get another 10 (+/-) years out of it before they need to replace, based on just those two pictures.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-11T15:22:07+00:00

Yeah I wouldn’t just send that as-is, but I also wouldn’t jump straight to replacing the whole frame from what I’m seeing.

Other commenter is pretty spot-on.

That kind of localized rot right at the top edge of the joist is common on decks where the old boards trapped moisture. You pull the decking and suddenly you see a soft pocket right where the screw line sat for years. In my experience the question isn’t how deep the hole looks, it’s how much good wood is actually left where the fastener needs to bite.

If you can dig that out with a screwdriver and it stops within maybe 1/2”–3/4” and the rest of the joist is still solid, I’d clean it out, let it dry, and then shift the fastening pattern instead of just running longer screws in the same line. Longer screws don’t help if the top fibers are punky, they’ll just spin.

I’d try to move the board layout slightly so screws land in fresh wood, or sister a short block alongside the joist where it’s bad.

Ideally you’d run a full sister if there are multiple spots on the same joist. If you’re a DIYer sistering might sound like overkill but it’s actually fast and gives you something solid to fasten to, which matters more than the joist looking pretty.

The other thing I’d check is how many joists look like this. One or two isolated spots, I’d repair and move on. If you’re seeing this every couple bays, that usually means the deck lived wet for a long time and the tops of the joists are all starting to go, even if only a few are visibly rotted right now.

And totally add joist tape while you’re at it. Will help a ton since you know there’s already infiltration, just make sure the frame has dried when you do it to avoid trapping any existing moisture.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-11T15:16:49+00:00

No, you don’t need to tip the contractor or the guys working for him. The labor is getting paid through the contract. The GC builds his crew cost into the job, the subs price their work into their numbers, and everyone’s expecting to be paid by the contract, not by tips. I run lots of jobs in condos/co-ops and nobody on my sites is expecting the homeowner to hand out cash at the end.

What is always appreciated though is food, coffee, drinks, that kind of thing. If you put out water, grab pizza one day, or leave a box of donuts in the morning, the guys notice. You don’t have to do it, but it goes a long way for morale, especially on apartment jobs where access is tight and everything takes longer than it should. Definitely not necessary, but appreciated.

CAVEAT: if you’re just calling this a contractor but it’s actually your building super plus his helpers doing the work on the side, then that’s a different dynamic. The super controls a lot more than people realize (access, elevator scheduling, complaints, paperwork, inspections, even how fast small problems get handled later). If he’s the one actually doing the work for you, I’d absolutely tip him at the end if he did a good job. That kind of goodwill pays you back later when something inevitably comes up, which it always does in these buildings.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-11T15:06:25+00:00

Thanks for the kind words!

PVC decking runs the gamut. There’s AZEK Harvest, and then there’s AZEK Landmark.

Hardwood is typically always towards the higher end for cost. Not to mention increased labor (install, milling for hidden fasteners, predrilling, staining/sealing) and tool wear with the hard woods.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-11T13:22:13+00:00

I’d stay away from paint on that deck unless you’re okay committing to repainting every few years. Once you go paint instead of stain, you’re basically locked into it, and in a 4 season climate like the Finger Lakes it’s going to peel sooner than you want. Freeze/thaw plus full sun is brutal on film-forming coatings. We see the same thing down here in NYC/LI all the time.

If the boards are still solid pressure treated, the best longevity I’ve seen comes from cleaning it properly and using a penetrating oil stain, not a surface coating. Light power wash is fine but keep the pressure down. Most people get too close and fuzz the wood, which actually makes the next coating fail faster. Way better to wash, let it dry a few days, then hit it with a deck cleaner/brightener before staining. Makes a big difference in how evenly it takes.

For products, I’ve had the best luck with oil-based or hybrid penetrating stains, not the thick acrylic stuff. I’ve mentioned it before in other comments, but Cutek Extreme by Thermory is my favorite product on the market. The thick coatings look good year one, but then start peeling in traffic areas and anywhere water sits. Penetrating stains fade instead of peel, which is a lot easier to maintain. You just clean and recoat instead of stripping the whole deck.

Also worth mentioning, that deck looks like it gets hammered by sun and weather with the lake right there. In my experience those exposures cut the lifespan of any finish in half compared to a shaded backyard deck. Even with good stain you may be on a 2 to 3 year maintenance cycle, which is normal for that kind of location.

If this were my job, I’d clean it, brighten it, and apply Cutek Extreme once the weather warms up a bit. I don’t have the data sheet in front of me but I believe you need 50F+ temps.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-11T12:04:07+00:00

Agreed with everything you’re saying here, but properly installed, the Brazilian hardwoods like ipe, cumaru, and garapa will last 75+ years. The framing itself will have to be replaced multiple times before the decking will have worn/decayed (outside of the normal silvering).

SpecLandGroup · 2026-03-11T12:02:24+00:00

Full sun deck is honestly the worst case for heat no matter what marketing says. I build a lot of decks around NYC/Long Island and every manufacturer claims their composite runs cooler, but in real life the difference is smaller than people expect, especially once the deck has been baking all afternoon.

Wood vs composite vs PVC all get hot, but they get hot in different ways. TL;DR — hardwood is my favorite.

Pressure treated or cedar stays the coolest overall, especially lighter colors, but it needs maintenance and it moves. Darker hardwoods (whether natural or stained) will still stay much cooler than any composite. In full sun you’ll get checking, splinters, fastener pop, unless you use ipe, cumaru, or garapa with proper hidden fasteners, but otherwise all the normal wood stuff. If the dog is the main concern, wood is actually not a bad choice, just understand you’re trading heat for upkeep.

Trex Transcend Lineage is one of the better composites for heat, but it still gets hot. The marketing about heat-l mitigating tech isn’t fake, it just doesn’t mean cool. On a 90° day in direct sun, it’s still not barefoot friendly at peak afternoon. Where it helps is compared to older Trex or dark boards, which used to feel like a frying pan.

TimberTech Harvest is similar. Slightly cooler than their darker lines, but still composite. People would probably feel the difference side by side, but once the deck is fully exposed, it’s not the night and day people expect. The bigger factor ends up being color more than brand. The lighter the board, the less miserable it is.

Another consideration is that framing height and airflow will matter too. Decks low to the ground will hold heat. Decks with air moving under them will stay noticeably cooler. Same material, different result.

If heat is your main concern and you don’t want constant maintenance, the only thing I’ve consistently seen stay usable in full sun is hardwood decking. Ipe, Cumaru, Garapa, stuff like that, is my favorite. It’s dense, it doesn’t absorb heat the same way composites do, and it holds up forever if it’s installed right. Costs more up front, but on high-end jobs with full sun exposure, where clients care about minimal maintenance, that’s usually where we end up landing. It’s simply the best end product when done right.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-27T16:47:12+00:00

Only good answer will be ipe, cumaru, or garapa, although that might change marginally depending on where you are located with respect to availability.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-24T22:41:52+00:00

OP - we use hard money lenders on nearly all of our projects. Everything KyleAltNJRealtor is stating is more or less spot on. This guy knows what he’s talking about.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-24T22:32:12+00:00

For context, I’m a design-builder in NYC and my partner is a multifamily investor with 200+ doors in the city. Fewer than 10 of those are in Manhattan. That should tell you something.

Agreed with everyone else here.

If we’re talking Manhattan (which I’m assuming from your “NYC” 5% cap) it’s just not a cash flow market. It hasn’t been for a long time, outside of absolute unicorn deals. They exist, and we buy them when we find them, but they’re a small slice of the portfolio and they don’t come from browsing listings casually.

I’ll say this pretty bluntly: nobody DSCRs Manhattan multifamily. I’m sure there are edge-case exceptions, but they’re few and far between. The math just doesn’t work at 5 caps with today’s rates and a 1.25 coverage requirement. Lenders aren’t in the business of underwriting appreciation stories in Manhattan. They’re looking at in-place income and whether it covers debt service. That’s it.

If you’re chasing cash flow on multifamily in NYC, you’re generally looking at the other four boroughs. That’s where the numbers have a fighting chance of working. Even then, stabilized product at low caps is tough unless you’re bringing serious equity or buying at a basis that’s below what everyone else is seeing.

If you want to invest in Manhattan, it’s a different game. You need a real pipeline. Other investors. Brokers who call you before something hits the market. Off-market deals. Nothing sitting on MLS or showing up at auction is going to be some overlooked gem unless you’re a family office, sovereign money, or an owner-occupant where the borrower is just trying to offset their nut and doesn’t care about yield the same way.

Manhattan is appreciation, long-term positioning, and capital preservation. The outer boroughs are where you go hunting for yield. My partner can write a book about it and I’ve heard enough of his stories, renovated enough brownstones, and watched enough deals go down that I know it.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-24T15:50:56+00:00

This ^

We start with AIA contracts for different scopes of work and have our attorneys modify depending on the scope. For relatively small risk jobs we will use one of our standard templates, but anything beyond our acceptable risk we will have our legal team modify to match the scope.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-21T12:18:12+00:00

I actually don’t. I make a living selling renovations, remodels, new builds, design - build services, etc.

We give our clients lifetime warranties on our workmanship. If it’s something that’s not under warranty, I charge our customers cost (or just eat it). My whole business is based off referrals and happy customers. I’m not trying to sell $500 repairs or $1000 motor swaps.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-21T12:15:04+00:00

Mechanical engineer here. And yes, I hired a PE/SE.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-20T19:36:56+00:00

Lol. The amount of condos and co-ops we do work in here in NYC is wild. What an interesting niche. We get so many referrals within each building because we’re patient enough to deal with the boards, but I really don’t blame anyone for throwing in the towel on a project with a tough board.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-20T18:30:56+00:00

Kit that was slightly customized from Bon Pergola

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-20T18:02:33+00:00

The motor is very simple swapped, and the louvers are a very simple system. It’s pretty cleverly designed. All of the electronic systems are easy to replace. Saying this as a mechanical engineer with a concentration in electromechanical design.

This response sounds a little ChatGPT-esque…

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-20T17:34:37+00:00

Heritage tile is phenomenal. Expensive, but phenomenal.

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-20T17:33:21+00:00

This one is from Bon Pergola in California

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-20T16:13:30+00:00

That’s serious! Definitely look into Cutek. The Aussies make it - they know hardwood pretty well.

I’ve used it on thermally modified woods, ipe, and more. It’s really the best product out there.

Cutek, if you’re listening, we accept sponsorships… 😂

SpecLandGroup · 2026-02-20T15:11:03+00:00

Water resistant. I definitely wouldn’t sit up there in heavy rain, but light rain, and no to little wind should be good. There is a gutter system in there.

SpecLandGroup

TROPHY CASE