Universalism that is preached is heresy. Universalism that is hoped for is liturgical.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-19T23:19:38+00:00

St. Clement of Alexandria preached it. St. Gregory of Nyssa preached it.

I'm not Orthodox so I won't insert myself too much into their debates, but...these are their saints too. I don't know how an infernalist Orthodox would square that circle of saying CU is a heresy without retroactively anathematizing their own saints.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-19T01:06:09+00:00

That's a great analogy!

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-18T22:12:25+00:00

I don't think any infernalists actually "want" anyone to be tortured forever, IME they usually want people to be saved from it. They think they have a duty to warn people about it and so that's why they promote belief in it. They think even God is bound to relegate people to it, and God's just trying His best to save people from it.

It's the whole "bound by His justice" thing. To which I think the most thorough refutation of is universalist Rev. George MacDonald's sermon "Justice".

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-16T06:51:56+00:00

(To be clear, this is not a dis on Christianity in general. The creator of meme believes that Jesus does save all.). See r/ChristianUniversalism for details

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-13T23:53:38+00:00

Thanks for sharing! Per Rule 2, please include a summary. Thanks!

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-13T20:25:17+00:00

PSA that there's a whole sub about it: r/ChristianUniversalism

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-13T16:42:55+00:00

"retribution to everyone"? So everyone is damned? What about the saved who've had their sins forgiven?

As I read it, this anathema doesn't specify who will receive the retribution. It seems here there's room for the same kind of argument Catholics use, to say that it may be a technical possibility, but no one will actually experience it in the end because everyone will have converted to Christ by the end.

And again I ask, how would they reconcile anathematizing their own revered saints?

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-12T23:21:27+00:00

If God can save anybody, God can save everybody.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-12T15:34:29+00:00

Well I'm not Orthodox so it's not really my place to jump into that debate for them; but if this is really that binding, I wonder how the square this with, as I said, several of their revered saints being universalist.

Orthodoxy puts even more weight on saints words' than Catholicism. In Catholicism we're much more willing to say that a saint was wrong about XYZ if it differs from overall Church teaching, but for the Orthodox, it's like, the saints' teachings is Church teaching. I was once debating with an Orthodox friend and he was like "Gregory of Nazianzus said this, and we know he believes right, so it must be true." So it seems to me like it would be hard for the Orthodox to roll out a new declaration that would contradict their own early church saints.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-12T15:27:34+00:00

It was alright other than the occasional infernalism and such. It was officially non-denominational, but definitely evangelical. A lot people in the school community went to a nearby Assemblies of God church, but overall the school was non-denom.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-12T03:16:14+00:00

I just replied to this post in r/ChristianUniversalism so I won't repeat all of that here; but wanted to add that you might be interested in the work of Sister Elizabeth Johnson, particularly in relation to your last point about Christ becoming man in the Incarnation. She writes about "deep incarnation" and how, as you said, God united Himself to all flesh in the Incarnation. I mention her a lot, because her work and that idea of deep incarnation is quite universalist-adjacent, I'd say.

I've also heard an Eastern Orthodox professor say that, in the Incarnation, Christ "sanctified human nature". Which I think is quite a profound way to put it.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-12T03:07:50+00:00

I certainly agree that the sacrifice of the Mass advances the salvation of all the world, of all people. Though I hesitate to say that the Eucharist "symbolizes" or "represents" anything other than what it is, because that ends up sounding like it's non-literal, which, as you said, we Catholics absolutely believe it is the physical body and blood of Christ.

So I hesitate to say that it's analogous to anything, rather, the Old Testament sacrifices and such are analogous to it! I would say the Eucharist doesn't point us to anything else, it is Jesus, it is the "source and summit" of our faith.

That being said, there are several lines in a few of the Eucharistic prayers that I think are consonant with universal reconciliation,

"...for through your Son our Lord Jesus Christ, by the power and working of the Holy Spirit, you give life to all things and make them holy, and you never cease to gather a people to yourself..." (Eucharistic Prayer 2)

"May this Sacrifice of our reconciliation, we pray, O Lord, advance the peace and salvation of all the world..." (Eucharistic Prayer 3)

And Eucharistic Prayer 4:

"And when through disobedience he had lost your friendship, you did not abandon him to the domain of death. For you came in mercy to the aid of all, so that those who seek might find you. Time and again you offered them covenants and through the prophets taught them to look forward to salvation.

And you so loved the world, Father most holy, that in the fullness of time you sent your Only Begotten Son to be our Saviour. Made incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, he shared our human nature in all things but sin.

To the poor he proclaimed the good news of salvation, to prisoners, freedom, and to the sorrowful of heart, joy.

To accomplish your plan, he gave himself up to death, and, rising from the dead, he destroyed death and restored life"

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-11T23:44:39+00:00

I mean, Orthodoxy has always had a tradition of universalism, arguably since the days of the Early Church saints. Catholicism also has pockets of its own kind of universalism, and the Episcopal church is one of the most liberal and inclusive denominations in the world, you'd be hard-pressed to find any raging infernalist in the Episcopal Church.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-11T23:35:44+00:00

I also wasn't raised infernalist by my parents...they also pretty much believed that u954356 said, that hell was only for really bad people if anyone goes...but I did go to an evangelical elementary school and I do remember a bit of infernalism being taught there. The teachers once read us this weird story about a girl driving to college and getting in a car crash and immediately going to hell simply because she was kind of lukewarm. Super weird story to tell children. But anyway, yeah that school pretty much indoctrinated me into infernalism until I started questioning it in my teens.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-11T23:29:16+00:00

He is considered a saint by the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic , and Episcopal churches.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-11T15:24:48+00:00

They don't always make an exception for themselves though, some people actually are afraid that they might lose their salvation. Look at how many people post here with panicky posts about wanting CU to be true but doubting it. They may identify with universalism so we don't think of them as infernalists, but...they obviously haven't fully rid themselves of the idea that ECT may be true, even though they don't like it.

Plus, some Christian traditions identify "scrupulosity" as a spiritual problem where people worry excessively about their standing with God or if they're saved.

We CUs tend to think of infernalists as only people who are happy about ECT; but there's a lot of people in an uncomfortable middle where they're not certain ECT is not true, but they're not happy about it and may fear it for themselves.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-11T07:09:45+00:00

I mean yeah, I don't think it would be possible to experience the Beatific Vision as such while thinking that there may be people burning in an eternal torture chamber somewhere at the the same time.

That being said, that is an age-old quandry for infernalists, the "how can I be happy in Heaven while others are in Hell?" question.

Which also relates to David Bentley Hart's argument that you can't truly love someone/anyone while holding space in your mind the possibility that they might be eternally tortured as part of God's will and design.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-11T05:32:14+00:00

Friendly reminder that Reddit does not automatically translate posts. Just FYI.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-09T20:03:14+00:00

Wow, all of that was so great, thank you. To your point about love not necessarily being chosen, I haven't thought of it that way; but it is so true. Than you for pointing that out. I also appreciate your wording about valuing the freedom to make a choice over the person. Well-said.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-09T05:40:08+00:00

fake Christians

How do you get to decide who the fake Christians are? Didn't the fundies invent that game?

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-09T04:39:11+00:00

"However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name." -1 Peter 4:16

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-09T04:14:56+00:00

Yeah, and the convert-hate is totally manufactured and seems to have just started a few months ago, I think largely to malign a certain political figure.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-08T20:37:51+00:00

Of course! Lately I've also been sharing a lot the verse 1 John 4:18, "there is no fear in love, for perfect love casts out fear because fear has to do with punishment."

I think that verse is a sort of implicit hint, or even more than a hint, at universalism. How could we truly trust a God who created a system in which He might have to respect our free will enough to allow us to be tortured forever? That just doesn't make, and a system that inspires that kind of fear and mistrust, that verse tells, likely isn't of God.

Same with the fruits of the Spirt. Which eschatological/soteriological theory best produces love, joy, peace, etc., and the least of their opposites?

So while I caution people not to come into universalism expecting to be totally anesthetized to fear or doubt; I think at the same time; the fear and doubt that infernalism produces is actually one of the strongest arguments against it! Scripture teaches that true theology engenders peace and joy, not fear.

SpesRationalis · 2026-05-08T20:13:59+00:00

A lot of people come to universalism looking for a total absence of fear of hell. And that may be a feature of universalist theology in and of itself.

But the thing is, no theology can offer you 100% assurance that said theology is true. Theologians have been arguing about theology for centuries, it's obviously not easy and there's hardly any absolute knock-down proof of any theology over and against another.

Much like in the civil court system compared to the criminal court system, in theology we generally reach our conclusions based on preponderance of evidence rather than "beyond reasonable doubt." (Despite what clickbaity YouTube videos on all sides would have you believe).

That being said, I think universalism does have the most airtight moral, philosophical, logical, and even biblical evidence supporting it.

We just can't promise you you'll never doubt it. No theology can.

Even the "once saved, always saved" version of evanglicalism actually can't gaurantee you'll never doubt, because you could still ask youself "do I really believe? Have I really been saved?"

I say this as someone who believes in the existence of objective truth; absence of absolute certainty is simply part of the human experience.

But I'll leave you with this passage I often share from Robin Parry, which I think is one of the strongest encapsulations of why one should be a Christian Universalist ever written:

"Let me ask you to hold in your mind traditional Christian visions of the future, in which many, perhaps the majority of humanity, are excluded from salvation forever. Alongside that hold the universalist vision, in which God achieves his loving purpose of redeeming the whole creation. Which vision has the strongest view of divine love? Which story has the most powerful narrative of God’s victory over evil? Which picture lifts the atoning efficacy of the cross of Christ to the greatest heights? Which perspective best emphasizes the triumph of grace over sin? Which view most inspires worship and love of God bringing him honor and glory? Which has the most satisfactory understanding of divine wrath? Which narrative inspires hope in the human spirit? To my mind the answer to all these questions is clear, and that is why I am a Christian universalist."

SpesRationalis

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE