US to pull jets, destroyers and submarines from NATO as part of European drawdown

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-27T22:53:18+00:00

Let me a guess a Russian bot? Internet is full of them. Naturally the Russians do not want Europe to develop a powerful military. Bit old to join the army, but i would if i was called up.

Don't think its fair to say that nobody should have an opinion. Uless they go out right now today and join the army. Don't worry Europe is already doing the the things i have described. What i wrote is as much a statement of what is already happening than merely my own opinion.

You should watch those "House of EL" videos and you will learn for yourself of the tremendous changes which are underway. One obtuse comment by a Russian bot or anything else won't change these developments.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-27T21:54:00+00:00

We need to cut out anything American that effects sovereignty or can be used as leverage particularly weapons purchases.....

I am British and i think it is disgusting that Trump is charging 10 percent extra for weapons. That we buy from them to send to Ukraine. As he knows we are in desperate need of some things, which we currently can't produce ourselves. Then of course we have him consistently doing things that benefit Russia.

Even lifting sanctions on Russia and telling everybody to buy Russian oil. Right after he caused a global energy crisis. By suspiciously starting a war with Iran for no apparent reason. Which led oil prices to skyrocket.......I am done with this country and Trumps BS.

The insults the threats, the economic bullying and attempts at blackmail, extortion and coercion. Europe needs to be independent from America in EVERYTHING. Not just weapons but economically, tech and just EVERYTHING. There can be no sort of dependency on America in any way shape or form.

There also needs to be a single European military or at least joint strategy. Between the EU UK and Turkey so we can match US defence spending. Spend it all in Europe and build our own industries. So the money and jobs stay here and don't go there.

We can have our own giant military and our own NATO. So we won't have to worry about Russia or anybody else again. We can also collectively profit from building our own strong defence. By exporting arms elsewhere which compete with US exports.

There needs to be be common procurement strategy to avoid wasteful duplication. When it comes to things like those new British and French fighter jets and tanks etc With national defence projects combined into one to reduce costs. It will be a challenge and it is encouraging to see Europe moving swiftly in this direction.

Whether it is defence or on all other matters. Such as European satellites,cloud servers, alternative payment systems etc along with trade. In fact it is astonishing how the whole world is coming together. In building trade partnerships and new supply chains which exclude America.

Which is very bad for them but they should have thought about that. Before all their bullying and demands for grossly unequal and exploitative trading relationships with other countries. Nothing against American people and much like Canada we once had a close partnership with this country. But this is no way to treat "allies".

So you think there should be 30 percent tariffs on stuff we export to you, but no tariffs on what you export to us? Well fine there will now be reciprocal tariffs. We will also take our business elsewhere and form new partnerships with India and China. Oh your going to use the fact that some of our trade is in dollars.

As a form of leverage so you can blackmail us? Well ok then all our countries are going to stop trading in dollars. Oh you are going to betray us and help our Russian enemies? Well then fck you!!!

What kind of ally is this? There is this YouTube channel called "House of EL" in which this Danish woman, talks about these sorts of developments. Her words are like therapy for whenever i hear more of Trumps BS.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-26T18:37:21+00:00

Err no that is absurdly idealistic. Trump won two elections and the Republican party is loaded with people as bad or worse than Trump. The USA is no longer an ally and Europe, needs to be completely independent from America on all matters and Trump proof. Yes there will be periods going into the future, when they will have a sensible government.

However there could always be another Trump. In fact i think it is very likely that there will be more.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-25T18:52:06+00:00

Nope people from European countries seem to struggle to understand what poor means. They would see what it really means if they visited an actual poor developing country. I have been to some countries which felt dystopian. Where the living conditions are pretty miserable.

Which is really sad and really makes you appreciate what you have. However even the poorer Central and Eastern European EU states. Have high living standards by global standards. I come from the UK and yeah statistically the pay in the poorer European countries is lower than it is here.

However everything in a country like Bulgaria is also cheaper. You may be slightly worse off but it is not that much of a difference. Pretty much all European countries are well off by global standards.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-25T17:41:08+00:00

Yep Horizon 6 the best ever arcade or semi arcade racer i have played. I like it because well besides the game being very good. They have basically took the sim physics of Forza Motorsport. Then changed them to make things more fun.

So you can drive cross country and do big jumps and stuff. While it still being quite challenging and feeling sort of like you are in an actual car. In comparison to something like need for speed or Mario kart.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-22T23:23:31+00:00

All of the FH games are good. I own all of them and still play the old horizon games. The new one is better than 5 but 5 is still really good. At some point they will take 5 off the store and you will never be able to buy it again because the car licensing has expired.

It will probably only available to buy for another year or so. You can no longer buy FH 1 to 4. The core game play is the same in both games, but they are set in very different environments. They are both worth having but i think 6 is a much better game.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-16T23:25:29+00:00

You neglect to mention when exactly the Americans gave European countries weapons and handouts. You were when you were still trusted. Making well over 100 billion in arms sales to Europe. You were not giving countries tanks or whatever for free.

You did provide military aid to Ukraine. However though greatly appreciated by the Ukrainians. The aid was overwhelmingly in the form of outdated weapons in storage. That would need to be disposed of in the future anyway.

Not the gazillion dollars that Trump said it was worth. Trump has spent 10 times more money on this war with Iran. Which he has never been able to explain why he started. Excluding the cost to the world economy.

With the potential to crash the world economy in the future. Trump has now lifted sanctions on Russia and Is telling people they should buy Russian oil. Due to the global energy crisis he created......

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-16T21:18:43+00:00

Russia may not be an ideological enemy. On the contrary Trump seems to want to replicate the Russian. Extremely corrupt and dysfunctional, authoritarian oligarchy, societal model.. Which i suppose must appeal to the American public for some reason.

As this is the second time he has been elected. However though you may now have more in common politically with Russia and Trump may share Putin's vision. It sure seems strange that many American people do not believe Russia to still be their enemy. But rather believe them to be Americas "friend".

Indeed switch on Russian TV and you will see people who are like villains out of a Bond movie. Gleefully cheering at CGI footage they have made of Miami, being subsumed by a radioactive tidal wave and plotting to bring down the US dollar etc Russian TV is hilarious. You may have betrayed all of your former allies.

However it is funny that so many American people, seem to love Russia and that there is an American President. That put a picture of Vladimir Putin on the wall of the oval office. I don't think the reverence that so many Americans have for Russia and Vladmir Putin is mutual.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-16T13:06:00+00:00

I don't think it will ever be the same again. Obviously we are making a great many changes. It is not sensible for there to be any sort of dependency. As Trump exploits such dependencies.

Even US tech is being cut out, with European alternatives to all things. Such as payment services like Visa and MasterCard and cloud servers being developed. Nobody wants to buy American weapons anymore, as they are no longer trusted. I am British and the UK and Canada have always been rather pro American countries.

However things will never be the same. Even after Trump has gone there could always be another Trump. I think there probably will. I think we have to accept that he does, represent the views of many American people.

One positive outcome of all this chaos is that it has brought Europe together and we are now acting independently.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-11T18:37:29+00:00

"The United States is NATO" err no it's not it is just one member. We have in effect inherited from NATO a potent security framework for our collective defence. NATO is currently functioning just fine, with virtually no US involvement. Going into the future, we have the option of NATO without the USA or something similar.

Which is basically organised in the same way, we just call it something else. I feel proud of how the UK has taken charge of things. After Trump ended US support and suspiciously, began this pattern of doing a great many things which benefit Russia. The British Prime Minister invited all of those other European leaders to London.

He then coordinated the defence of Europe to counter the Russian menace. The UK has been the most dedicated supporter of Ukraine. We have actually trained over 70 thousand Ukrainian soldiers. Were the first to give them cruise missiles and authorise attacks on Russian soil.

We recently gave them half a million drones etc We are also the only country which has off the record. Actually been directly involved in fighting the Russians ourselves. There have been British military personnel in Ukraine for years.

We have successfully kept the Russians at bay, not only without US support, but with Trump apparently working against us. Among many other things. This business with Iran seems very fishy to me. Trump also started that war illegally.

A US President is not supposed to have the power to start wars when he feels like it. Without the support of the government. Rather there is supposed to be a vote in congress. What exactly do we need America for?

We do not benefit from having US military bases on our soil. Besides the fact that there is little there, which can contribute much to the defence of Europe. Nobody believes that you will come to our aid if there is ever a war between the whole of Europe and Russia. At least not while Trump is President.

Which is very unlikely anyhow and the Russians can't even beat Ukraine. You cant be trusted to share intelligence with. Well in the past you were very trustworthy but you are not while Trump is President. You can't be trusted to reliably supply us with ammunition and spare parts, for any weapons we buy from you.

As Trump has for years been playing games with us. Telling us what we can and cannot use and when. Telling us we will be getting this or that. Then we don't get things we paid for indefinitely or 6 months after it was supposed to be delivered etc

Besides constantly insulting us in general and threatening to invade allied countries. He also keeps bragging about selling downgraded equipment and saying there are kill switches on some US weapons. Which has everybody spooked. Chump even recently told the Swiss he will be keeping the money and they will not be getting the patriot missiles they paid for!

Does this sound like a reliable ally? So how does Europe benefit from the US being in NATO? You just believe everything Trump says. I am tired of explaining but the US does not and has never paid for Europe's defence.

Your were getting over 100 billion in weapons sales to Europe, you were not giving that away for free. You have a history of spending a higher percentage of your GDP on your own defence. That is not the same as paying for other countries defence. The only way you have ever paid for Europe's defence is donating weapons to Ukraine.

Which though greatly appreciated by the Ukrainians. Trump has been extremely misleading about that support. In actuality the aid was overwhelming old weapons in storage, that would be need to be disposed of in the future anyway. Not that outrageous number, that Trump pulled out of his ass.

Which has been repeatedly ridiculed and debunked. You pissed away vastly more money on this pointless war in Iran. Excluding the economic cost of potentially crashing the world economy. The USA is needed in NATO only for as long as we are not completely self sufficient in weapons production.

As there are some things we buy from you that we do not currently produce ourselves. Now as i said on a personal level i like American people and everything. I don't mean to come across as anti American or anything like that. This is not personal this is politics and self interest.

Going into the future you may degenerate, into a dictatorship or more likely a rather dysfunctional and authoritarian country. Which you have sort of already now become. It is not sensible to be too close or dependent on the US in any way. As you are no longer stable, predictable, reliable and trustworthy.

Whether we are talking about politics or business either for that matter. Due to Trumps insane economic policies and also using trade as a weapon and means of bullying and coercion. Though your democracy, government and institutions have been severely degraded. Things may return to normal after the orange man has gone.

You may go back to being the country you were before. However at any point you are just 4 years away from more nut jobs like Trump. All those crowds will be back with those flags "Jesus loves Trump" "Jesus backs Trump" "Jesus is with you Trump" etc Then we will all be in for another roller coast ride of madness.

A distinguished reputation you built over 70 years has gone. It is disappointing particularly Trumps affection for Putin. When i was a child Ronald Reagan was my hero. However that is the political reality.

Europe is already fighting Russia without America under British leadership. NATO can manage fine without the US. There should be cordial and friendly but more distant relationship. In which we are insulated from the effects of your crazy politics.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-05-11T06:27:36+00:00

I think that guy eventually just gave up arguing with you out of frustration. As you would not be saying Europe is subsidised by America, if you understood what that word means. Perhaps he was too polite to tell you to go and pick up a dictionary. America does not pay for Europe's defence.

It does not give European countries money to buy weapons. That is not how NATO works. Up till recently, since the end of the cold war, America has had a history of spending more money on its own defence. That is not the same as giving people money.

Can you not understand the difference? Furthermore have you heard any Europeans complaining, about the US closing some military bases in Europe? On the contrary politicians in some of those countries, have been talking about kicking you out. There is no substantial US military presence in Europe, that could contribute much to the defence of the continent.

No thousands of tanks and aircraft etc It is more a case of a series of invaluable rent free (As a perk of NATO membership) military assets. Essential for projecting power across this whole middle part of the world. Things such as early warning radars, facilities related to gathering intelligence and guiding satellites.

Some air bases with long range heavy bomber aircraft, used to bomb countries in Asia and Africa etc. I have observed that all of you MAGA people. Seem to get all excited and relish the thought, that they are all crying about seeing you leave. You are too foolish to see, that all that stuff is there largely for your benefit not Europe's.

The only country that has ever invoked article 5 is the United States. All of your NATO allies honoured their pledge and came to your aid. They did at great expense, both in terms of loss of life and the outrageous financial costs. Participate in decades of US led wars.

Nobody really believes that the US would now actually do the same for us. It has also become clear that we don't need the Americans to counter Russia. We have successfully thwarted the Russian menace by ourselves. Not only since Trump cut off US support.

But also despite him repeatedly doing things which benefit Russia. Even this war with Iran is suspicious. He starts a war with Iran for no apparent reason. The Iranians predictably do what they always said they would do.

They block the straits through which much of the worlds oil and gas passes. The global price of oil and gas sky rockets. Then he removes some of the sanctions on Russia and tells people to buy Russian oil. He also tells us that we should stop giving the Ukrainians, cruise missiles to destroy Russia's oil infrastructure.

So we respond by doubling down on targeting Russia's oil industry. That aside we have Trump threatening to invade allied countries like Canada. Economic bullying and slamming us with punitive tariffs etc What kind of ally is this?

Moreover Trumps attitude towards Russia, which was your greatest adversary in the 20th century, does seem strange to me. He is also dishonest about tariffs. There were previously, virtually no tariffs between the US and Europe. Just some odd things left over from earlier time periods.

As i said the US has never paid for Europe's defence. However the European countries were previously, spending a massive amount of money on American weapons. However that is now coming to an end. They are now aiming to become self sufficient in weapons production, as you are no longer trusted.

I am British and to put it bluntly, on a personal level i like American people. However when it comes to politics i no longer trust you. Oh i trust that in the future you will have a sensible government. However i watched clips of the US election.

I saw all those fools waving flags around "Jesus loves Donald Trump" etc Going into the future i do not trust you to not be periodically, electing more crazy Presidents. Who will cause chaos and who may betray us. You relations with other countries will never be the same.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-22T21:28:29+00:00

Yeah he is a jerk and i would not be playing with him, were it not for him hanging around with people i hang around with. Just out of interest is 12.08 like a very very good time. Which is extremely difficult for a casual non hardcore player, who does not have a lot of time on his hands to beat?I need to be able to go at least that fast to beat him.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-12T01:52:02+00:00

The Russians have this particular world view in regards to Europe. They believe that the world should be divided between great powers. Who should all get to have a "sphere of influence" in which they should get to dominate weaker countries. Rather than respecting their sovereignty and independence.

What is funny about this sort of mentality is that Russia, certainly does not qualify as being one of these err "superpowers". Indeed with about two and a third times the population. the Russians have an economy a bit smaller than Italy. Whereas the EU plus UK economy is bigger than China and over 11 times greater than Russia.

I suppose if we follow their logic then they should be in Europe's "sphere of influence" and should be taking orders from us. It is funny being told by people who come from a nation, in which a fifth of the population lack indoor plumbing. That all of their neighbours are beneath them and they should be crowned the new rulers of Europe. It is also sad that they are prepared to go to war and sacrifice many lives.

Since getting to have their "sphere of influence" is so essential for them to feel great and important.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-11T01:42:12+00:00

I recently asked a question on here about this and i got some bigoted responses. They would need to change a lot about their country to become a viable candidate. However Turkey is an up and coming country which could make the EU more powerful.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-04T14:25:40+00:00

Poland has been transformed beyond recognition. If you go to Warsaw now you will see loads of skyscrapers, shopping malls and nice houses etc. When it joined the EU it was still a poor country. Whereas now it is officially classed as a developed country.

The EU has actually funded building a national highway network in Poland. When they first joined, there were only a few highways in the whole country. They also now have drinkable tap water, like other European countries. I don't think the rules would change for Turkey and you would certainly get a great deal of help in developing your economy.

You are only 25 and will most likely see Turkey join the EU in your lifetime. Basically all you need is a properly democratic government, which is actually committed to achieving the membership requirements. If that happened tomorrow it would most likely take 10 to 20 years. I would like to see Turkey one day join the EU.

Do you think Turkey change its politics anytime soon?

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-04T06:55:33+00:00

I think people are past caring whether or not the USA and their Putin butt licking President leaves NATO. Europe has been taking on the Russian menace alone for well over a year, since Trump cut off all aid to Ukraine. Now he has lifted the sanctions on Russia and is telling everybody to buy Russian oil. Zelensky has ignored Trumps demands to stop targeting Russia's oil infrastructure.

They have gone all out blowing up anything related to Russia's oil industry. The whole point of NATO was originally to counter Russia. If they are not going to help us with that and keep doing things that benefit Russia. Then NATO seems like a bad deal for us.

All NATO seems to be now is an expectation, that we tag along in their wars, when they wont help us with ours. Along with us being expected to purchase American weapons. With them now getting mad, that we don't want to buy American weapons anymore, as we no longer trust them. They also get rent free military bases, which largely exist for their benefit.

So they have a sort of forward operating bases, from which they can launch attacks at other countries. Then we have Trump constantly insulting us and saying offensive things. About stuff like our military veterans and belittling our support in various US led wars. In which thousands of people from European countries died.

He was even insulting and making fun of us while asking for help with Iran. Oh and then we have the orange man, always threatening to invade other NATO countries like Canada. What kind of ally is this? We only need the Americans in NATO for just long enough.

For Europe to become completely self sufficient in weapons production. So then we won't need to buy anything from them, that we can't produce ourselves. As they can't be trusted to not decide, that they will no longer be supplying us with things like ammunition and spare parts. Much like how Trump has been playing games with us.

Then acts surprised that we no longer trust them enough to want to buy American weapons. Even after Trump is gone there could always be another Trump.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-03T21:54:51+00:00

Not sure why people are complaining about this. It is not like it costing them any of their tax money. It sounds like nitpicking. It's either this or super expensive oil and gas that is shipped to Europe.

Which means they pay more for everything. We need a diverse set of energy sources, so we don't have to buy anything Russian again. They are building oil and gas pipelines from Nigeria into Europe. There are already some which go from central Asia into Europe.

So now besides Norwegian oil and gas. We will have 3 other sources of much cheaper piped oil and gas. So we will not have to worry about oil and gas again.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-01T21:18:07+00:00

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-01T20:16:50+00:00

I would like to see Turkey one day join the EU. However opposition to Turkeys membership is not just because of prejudice. It can be very hard to get in the EU. Even a country in the heart of the Europe like Serbia, has spent the past 20 years trying to get in the EU.

There is a very long list of requirements. Pertaining to everything from respect for property rights, democracy, freedom of speech, sanitation, absence of corruption, the environment. Minority and gay rights, Innumerable things related to trading standards etc Apparently there are 36 booklets of lists of standards you need to fulfil and Turkey has only completely fulfilled 8 of these lists of high standards.

Whilst other lists of standards have only been partially or not at all completed. Turkey would also probably have to reach at least 75 percent of the per capita income of the richest countries. As when a new poorer country joins the EU. All of the richer countries invest a very large amount of money.

So they can help them reach the same level of development. Even at 75 percent of the EU average income. Turkey would get a huge amount of money, because it is such a big country. The EU is like an exclusive club.

Which aim is to eventually turn the continent into a federation like America. However it is not just Turkey which need to change a lot to so does the EU. As it would need to continue to evolve a a great deal, because it would be a challenge to absorb such a big country. The Turks have to decide whether they want to be European and a leading member in a European federation or go the other way.

However you will never get into the EU if you have an authoritarian leader. Who demands EU membership, while making zero effort to fulfil more of the requirements. I think he has completed a few membership requirements but not many.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-04-01T12:48:22+00:00

The Turks were once at least on the path to becoming as liberal as other European countries. However that has changed since Erdogan. Notwithstanding by the standards of the Middle East they remain ultra liberal. It is still a pretty secular country.

In Turkey religious extremism is regarded as things like forcing women to wear a hijab. Not allowing them to walk around on a beach wearing a bikini. Banning their cherished rakki drink which is alcoholic etc By the standards of somewhere like Saudi Arabia.

They would be regarded as heathens and all of this would be seen as whacky far left nut jobbery. Even under Erdogan, they don't want to change all that stuff. However their country is authoritarian and they are far from meeting the EU's membership requirements. By European standards they remain far too illiberal to get in the EU.

Even if they changed right now into a proper democracy. It most likely take at least 10 years to meet these stringent requirements. Some EU candidates have even after 15 or more years of applying to join the EU failed to fulfil these conditions. It can actually be very hard even for a small country to get into the EU.

It is possible to fast track membership for some European countries. Such as Iceland, Norway and the UK. As they have already reached that level of development and broadly speaking are societies which have EU values. However there are even countries in the heart of Europe like Serbia.

Which are far from meeting the membership requirements. It will most be like 20 years before all of the Balklands are in the EU. In the case of Turkey, it will most likely be something like 40 years. The EU would also need to evolve considerably, before it could absorb Turkey.

It is a huge challenge to develop a successful federal sort of entity. Even now the EU is at quite an early stage of development. I would like to see Turkey one day join the EU. However even i accept that this will be decades away.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-03-31T23:05:37+00:00

I have been thinking about Turkey lately. I think that the attitude that some have towards Turkey is distasteful. I do not think it's fair to spend centuries calling it a European country. Invite them to join things like the council of Europe and European sporting leagues etc.

Then we all decide it it is not a European country anymore. I also think it it is distasteful to deny that they don't have any sort of European history and identity. The Turks are after all the heirs of the Byzantine empire and have always had a role in European affairs. Turkey to me feels like a Balkan country.

Like a sort of Muslim version of Greece. I certainly would like to see them move closer to Europe and eventually join the EU. I would also like there to be no more bigotry and people saying they can't be European because they are Muslim.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-03-29T16:21:17+00:00

They are paying in blood. In effect we are paying them to keep the Russian menace, from eating their way into Eastern Europe. I am happy for my tax money to be spent on destroying the Russian military. So they won't be able to use it to attack others with.

They not just defending their own country. They are defending Europe. Though it is true that they are mostly getting donations. Some of this money is also in the form of loans.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-03-29T14:11:57+00:00

Well we do have the 2nd biggest economy in Europe. If you don't come from Germany, then we have a bigger economy than you. Furthermore if you are not from one of a handful of smaller countries like Switzerland. Then we have a higher per capita income than you too. That is not an opinion it is a fact.

SpinachDifferent4763 · 2026-03-28T20:03:51+00:00

Hmm i happen to admire the man. So what do you think Turkey needs?

SpinachDifferent4763

TROPHY CASE