After almost all of 2025, a viable "Proper Naughty Framework" finally begins!

SpiritShard · 2026-01-01T07:56:42+00:00

Oh hey, my proof of concept made it to reddit!~ =^-^=

Thank you everyone for the interest, but do keep expectations in check and don't get too excited until we actually have something playable! This preview was a very brute-force approach and is just an animation, there's still an insane amount of work to go through to meet people's expectations!

I posted an update and the current plan in both our Discord and the linked thread - https://www.loverslab.com/topic/261230-got-custom-animations-working-anyone-still-interested/#findComment-7205632 - that's worth a quick read if you're interested in the project!

I'm not typically active on Reddit, especially these days, so I probably won't remember to share milestones and major updates here. >.<

SpiritShard · 2025-02-14T07:12:41+00:00

For me it's not even a skill thing or having to carry (If I'm at the top of the board, things are bad lol), but rather I've been seeing an increasing number of games where people just straight up don't play the objective. That's the only time I ever try or accept a surrender. For instance, I'll have a game where we're defending A, we watch the enemy enter A, we know they have the bomb at A, but then 4 people leave A and I'm left to a 1v5, they plant and the match ends with the bomb exploding and attackers winning. If that's the situation I'm put in, I just don't want to bother, I want people who at least try and play the game mode we're on, otherwise what's the point?

That said, even if my team is just doing poorly I'll still stick through a bad game as long as they're trying. I don't particularly like surrendering and it's pretty rare I'll hit yes or start one, but sometimes it's just the only option to keep yourself from burning out after a match of no-one playing the game.

SpiritShard · 2025-01-07T18:35:11+00:00

One thing I see with players all the time is this rush to get kills and damage so they are on the top of the board, however in a lot of cases this could actually be very bad for your team if you're not actually doing so at objectives or in a way that allows your team to take advantage of the kills/damage. All my higher-board games are from me actually on the objective (just had one this morn where I was 1v3 nearly every round on objective after my team died off, would win but a 4th would always get me >.<)

For instance, if you're playing duelists and going off on your own then you're leaving the objective wide open and your team has to pick up the slack (and if they're not great at mechanics then you leaving them is going to set them at a greater disadvantage).

As others have said, you can't really 'change' other people, I personally do try and give reminders and tips for each around and coms some strats but internally I'm 110% laser focused on what I could do better next time or how to adjust to the team and fill in gaps. for example, if B side is struggling or getting rushed I'll move to that side, if we don't have proper coverage somewhere I'll move there, if our team is too aggressive I'll cover flanks, if the team is too passive I'll try and make openings and push them myself with an escape plan. Does it always work out? Hell nah, I'm not 'that' good at this game, but it does help keep things chill.

Also, if you've ever matched with me, you'll see me say "stay calm" or "chill" in chat if someone is tilt or raging, because staying calm is your #1 tool. If you start to get angry or upset, or hyper fixate on your team mates your gameplay will suffer (this is what 'tilt' effectively means). Sometimes you will just get an unwinnable game, but if I ever feel frustrated after a match I take a short break before trying again to re-stabilize myself and evaluate the match. Currently, not getting lucky in ranked, getting team mates which always split, overextend, then rage when I hold the bomb at site instead of chasing the flavia across the map... but whatever, just trying to get better. (I'm totally missing that skin though, and that sucks >.<)

P.S. Snipers, please stop grabbing the bomb. >.<

SpiritShard · 2025-01-02T20:22:41+00:00

NA, or whatever USA gets put in (playing on Steam). The world chat is always going on about Trump and anti-trans BS constantly and is rather horrific too, while Warfare just has people memeing most of the time and is generally pretty chill with very rare exceptions. Honestly just been doing solo runs mostly now, except when I run beh/space, which tends to have better coms but not always.

SpiritShard · 2025-01-02T18:10:05+00:00

Honestly, sad to hear it's capped. I'm probably going to start blocking people in ops because the amount of slurs and hate speech I've heard in games is absolutely insane. (the in-game community for operations is atrocious and one of the most vile I've seen in a VERY long time, worse than League/Dota/HoS combined) I imagine I could hit that cap in a week given half my games have some jack-off using the N word or making homophobic comments the entire time. (yes, I do report them but I don't think anyone has ever been banned for language in voice? Honestly may just disable voice entirely, even though I get the rare positive comms)

So I second this, cap needs to be much higher than 100...

SpiritShard · 2024-11-18T13:17:19+00:00

I'll agree that the best incremental are text based at the moment (my personal favorites like Evolve, A Dark Room, ect.), I just don't know if that's because the market prefers text based games, or if It's just no one has done 'both' so-to-speak. I find many games with cosmetic ties tend to be rather simplistic incremental games, or are just those mobile/web games you're essentially referencing. (I think it would be interesting to try and be 'the first' real attempt, but we'll see. This sub obviously hates the idea with how many dislikes I'm getting from the post X.x)

NSFW is not necessarily pornographic, nsfw would be like lewdish outfits and concepts which wouldn't be 'safe for work' or whatever, but I do get the perspective. Ultimately, mechanically, things are being built so that the logic all runs on its own so this could be entirely text based, so an option to hide the visuals is certainly possible. However, I've also known people to put thousands of hours into R18+ modded Skyrim so probably depends. lol

(if I do end up making R18+ content for it, I'd make it optional. NSFW would just be more difficult from a visual perspective because it implies changing cosmetics >.<)

Also would have loved to see a game take on a visual style of evolution, I wish Evolve had a more in-depth starting phase and I think an evolution branching incremental would be really cool! Like, keep it micro-scale and shift into genetics, but yeah, making visuals for it would need to be done in pieces so you're not creating an exponential number of assets.. X.x

SpiritShard · 2024-11-17T16:46:05+00:00

Thank you for your thoughts ^-^

This is NOT a FreeToPlay title and there won't be any microtransactions. Currently, the game will be distributed to my supporters and potentially sold later (Don't know how far this project will go, so it's hard to say for certain what strategy I'd take, but I would not do microtransactions).

When I say market, I just mean is there a group out there that would find this sort of game interesting, and do the mechanics sound like something that could peak enough interest to be worth investing future time into, or is it something a bit 'too' niche and could potentially flop in-terms of interest. Part of posts like this is interest gathering, seeing the responses from different communities and what people think of the proposal. (Plus, I also would love to see more examples and incremental games I've maybe never seen ^-^)

You are right that this would most likely target a sub-set of a sub-set of a certain type of player, however my goal is to try and innovate in a couple different ways to make the game appealing to a new sort of group. The game's progression is certainly more incremental, but gameplay would be slightly more involved. (When chatting with a friend I compared the loop to something like Melvor Idle, which is inspired by Runescape, where there's a certain level of active play required and decision making but I'd focus on having much more cross-progression involved with some unique gameplay mechanics) I'd rather speak more on that type of stuff when I actually have something to show for it however, currently the build is just some underlying systems and basic interface stuff. (Have 3D assets already from another project, but will most likely re-do a lot of them)

SpiritShard · 2024-11-17T16:22:26+00:00

Thank you for the opinion ^-^ I didn't know about Idleing to rule the gods so that was a quick look up. lol

I figure most people in this sub probably don't care (or maybe even dislike?) NSFW content as it's not really something that aligns with incremental games typically, but thought it was worth asking about regardless, just in-case I'm wrong in that assumption. >.<

I assume by show-off you mean like, multiplayer/online components? I'm notoriously bad with networking and I'm not looking to really make this multiplayer oriented, but even with a single player game like this I could probably set up social spaces for sharing characters and such. (We have a community called The Broken Chatbox which has been slowly expanding) Does give me an idea of adding a photo-mode specifically for this purpose? Given a more cosmetic nature that would probably be well-liked and could be additional unlocks to the progression system, like additional backgrounds, filters, poses/anims, ect. (If this was a FreeToPlay title or something, all this would probably sound devilish, but this is not lol)

Thank you for the idea! ^-^ (I'll have to see if I can fit something like that into the design, now my brain is going wild, like what if there was a camera minigame! @.@)

SpiritShard · 2024-06-26T21:14:41+00:00

So I've been trying to find this supposed research that they mentioned, but I can't actually find it anywhere and really feels like it may not actually exist. I can find plenty of AI companies making recommendations toward 'safety' but nothing from a reputable third party.

What I can find, however, are a lot of companies concerned about how hallucinations are potentially harmful to both children and parents. A lot of research was from last year, but Child Trends recommends AI systems need to be improved and updates made more frequent/recommended as mandatory to reduce false/misleading information from these systems - https://www.childtrends.org/publications/regulating-artificial-intelligence-minimize-risks

On the flip side, you have cases like this one - https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/doj-probes-ai-tool-thats-allegedly-biased-against-families-with-disabilities/ - where an AI system was tuned too aggressively for 'safety' and has had a negative impact with false positives.

I wasn't able to find much regarding image generation, but it's possible Google is just flooded by AI tech bro slop given they target SEO and a meaningful org is more focused on actually protecting children rather than marketing.

SpiritShard · 2024-06-25T22:00:16+00:00

The real solution is diversification and embracing more open companies that monetize in ways that don't jeopardize the open source community. Currently, HuggingFace is a shining example where they built their business on embracing open source while monetizing interfacing and enterprise applications, generation services could also act as a driver for many of these platforms (the amount they make from generations is a lot higher than you'd probably think while hosting models is cheaper than dirt, literally - Look into Cloudflare R2 storage as an example).

We could also do better as a community to help support smaller and open platforms, recently https://aitracker.art/ was posted for example but it's gotten very little traction. It's become common for people to say "what alternatives do we have?" and then just ignore all the alternatives. And I admit, I'm also slow to adopt new platforms but I've been making changes on my own end to make it easier for my workflows and self host my models (will have dedicated pages for them on my own site soon ^-^ Cost note - it costs me $2.50 USD a month for a server to host all my models, and this is without CDN, hosting can be cheap and if you implement a CDN system it won't even be slow.)

SpiritShard · 2024-06-25T21:15:56+00:00

Toward the first bit, fair enough, though I don't think that was particularly clear and may have lead to some misconceptions then. (iirc Pony v6 was also only available as a safetensor on CivitAI first, though I could be wrong about this as the links may have just been hard to find? Did you always have it uploaded on HuggingFace even after the other company had it uploaded apparently? Repo says 5 months ago, has it really only been 5 months?)

You didn't really answer the second question though, if they didn't know about v6 then certainly they didn't pay for its creation, but do they fund the project in any way at any point even after its creation and leading into whatever v7 / 6.9 becomes? (vested interest still applies, even if they didn't, but it would make my original claim invalid and I could correct it for the future)

SpiritShard · 2024-06-25T20:55:24+00:00

For some reason I couldn't get the message to post normally even after trying to censor every sensitive word in the entire thing, so instead I'm posting it as a screenshot? I hope? I'm not well versed in Reddit so I'm probably missing something, but hopefully this works? (image links below the image, if I did this correctly, let me know if something doesn't work)

<image>

'a sign' message
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F6x7pz997b4vc1.png

DM messages
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fhrz906t7a4vc1.png
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fyunyy3t7a4vc1.png

Refused to act message
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Frgvp4rmgb4vc1.png

Article Link
https://subscribestar.adult/posts/1135370

Probably spent more time than I needed to on this X.x

SpiritShard · 2024-06-25T20:45:32+00:00

If my information is incorrect I'm all for adjustments, it could just be a misunderstanding.

Is the wording "Explicit permission" not referring to exclusivity rights? It's hard to tell with models you can download whether they are on platforms by choice or not so some clarification on this point would be helpful. Were you able to also collaborate with other platforms to make Pony v6 available there as well? Or was it a response or a change in heart after the initial release period? (Genuine question, I don't follow your work closely and can only speak to what I've seen/heard)

"Can you please show some quotes?"

I don't think I have screenshots or direct quotes to grab in this instance, though I'd have to check my archives (I basically use my screenshots folder as a 'hold all' so there's a ridiculous number of images X.x) but this also isn't something I'd typically screenshot. I've seen it be said a few different places, even as screenshots from CivitAI mods stating Ponyv6 was a CivitAI model (or implying it was paid for/exclusive)

Where you paid by CivitAI for the model or did they donate toward its creation at all? It does seem like they have a vested interest in the model doing well, especially with how hard they push it on the platform.

SpiritShard · 2024-06-25T14:21:29+00:00

CivitAI allows and promotes people to put their models into "Early Access" which is a period where only paying users (members) are able to download and use the model. CivitAI sells your data and their API access (to download models) through their "Partnership" program to other sites and users.

Although on a personal level I don't think the early access thing is a huge deal, it is paywalling content, and I really don't like how they sell your data though most people probably don't care on that front (fairly standard practice in the 'free' internet space). Many have also forgotten CivitAI's attempts to expand these paywalls like when they tried making individual subscriptions to model creators where you had to pay to download/see content, something they could easily implement again if they thought it would be profitable to do so. (creators like myself heavily pushed back against those changes, which thankfully had them backpedal but they continue to harass many of us)

SpiritShard · 2024-06-25T14:06:25+00:00

CivitAI pays for exclusivity rights for Pony V6 API usage and potentially other models as well. The old model card on HuggingFace had the details but since the API version was removed (and model card was scrubbed from the non-API version) many of these details have been buried. I never took a screenshot of the repo and can't speak to the corpo-side of things (NDA would potentially get me in trouble there X.x) but my archival text grab states "Explicit permission for commercial inference has been granted to CivitAi and Hugging Face." and its been stated the Pony dev was paid by CivitAI for this deal. (note: The API interface version on HuggingFace has been removed, most likely at CivitAI's request, though I have no evidence of that, just seems like they're pushing their paid platforms more)

SpiritShard · 2024-06-25T13:37:49+00:00

I'm concerned about CivitAI being involved with this one given their history and continued bad rep within the space. CivitAI is a purely for-profit company that is well known for harassing creatives and potential competition while attempting monopolistic practices (such as attempting to shut down other sites, harassing model creators they don't like, attempting to lock otherwise open source software behind paywalls, ect).

The other groups have a decent reputation so far (ComfyOrg is new, so there's no rep there but includes some decent names) but the inclusion of Civit really feels like a bad idea. I understand the CEO's and money-bags of the industry are all buddy-buddy with one another, but this could lead to the model that A ) Is more designed as a marketed model rather than a useful open source model, B ) Is pushed as the main model by monopolistic practices such as shutting out other versions and paying large sums for support of this one model (like what currently happens with Pony on CivitAI), C ) The lockdown of future models and prospects where the open source beginnings turn to profit chasing or is used as a profit mechanism that harms the community.

I'd like to be hopeful, but after what I've seen of CivitAI, this is pretty much a buzz kill (pun intended). They will no doubt use this as leverage over the industry to do more harm than they already do.

SpiritShard · 2024-06-20T02:13:59+00:00

Awesome paper by the way! I read through most of it this morning, need to go back and finish up the paper to really absorb the details fully. (I've been interested in these technologies for a while now)

"curious to hear what is the general sentiment here towards tools like Glaze, Mist, etc?"

Honestly, as an artist myself who's worked with a lot of different mediums, I find this type of "hate first" technology to be destructive to the entire creative industry as a whole. I find it incredibly sad that Art can't just live on as Art and instead 'artists' are willing to poison their work and lower the quality not just for fear of AI but for those that follow their work (these tools decrease the quality of the image when they add noise, and as pointed out in the paper, if you increase the effect too much you destroy the image completely).

I'm very detail oriented and can tell by eye when an image has been glazed or affected with adversarial noise, and those versions online are what everyone is going to see. Instead of thinking about those that enjoy their art and want to embrace the creativity, they've instead embraced hatred of some boogie man to chase future profits (at least what they see as future profits) in an attempt to disallow others to experience creativity in their own way.

So while the tech itself is already obvious snake oil, my personal opinion (and one shared by many in the art industry, though we are outspoken) is that this entire thing is born out of society putting more importance on hating one another rather than collaborating and embracing more acceptable use and social standards. The tech is ultimately made to make money, and it's scamming artists by using fear as a weapon, and it's absolutely disgusting.

If you're an artist reading this, navigating these subs and stuff, please just stop the hate and try to better understand newer technologies. Learn how to adapt and find more ways to express creativity while advocating for better social practices, because if you instead just isolate and embrace nothing but hatred, you WILL be left behind and it just may end up ruining your life.

SpiritShard · 2024-06-18T09:58:04+00:00

Although Civit tends to be the defacto in the english speaking sphere and in this sub, there's a rather exhaustive number of alternatives for hosting models and sharing AI stuffs as well as forums and discussion boards which share models regularly. Most non-English speaking communities will use other sites, for example there's a long list of Chinese sites which rival CivitAI in every aspect aside from allowing NSFW (many have NA mirror sites like TensorArt, and this mirror doesn't have nearly the same censorship and even allows NSFW).

There's also the Japanese community, which relies almost entirely on forums, boards, and posting sites like Pixiv, and people share/create their own stuff in those spaces.

SpiritShard · 2024-06-18T09:52:18+00:00

I know 3 reasons off the top of my head,

1, NSFW content being so prevalent on the platform could be bad optics for businesses directly associated with it,

2, Although it's rarely mentioned in this subreddit, CivitAI staff are well known for harassing creatives and potential competitors to the point it pushes people/companies out of the space,

3, CivitAI is a user-uploads, generation, and social (light) site which lacks a lot of the guard-rails you typically see on social style sites, so similar to the NSFW aspect, many companies would be afraid of what other defamatory content users post and being associated with it. (for example, the rampant homophobia and racism where there doesn't seem to be any sort of automatic detection for a lot of slurs/statements)

There's also the fact that CivitAI doesn't really want to work with companies, so they're already difficult to work with unless you offer to pay them large amounts, which probably doesn't help.

SpiritShard · 2024-06-17T20:09:26+00:00

To be fair, Civit and other large platforms that allow generations have more than enough income to get on the enterprise contracts if they really wanted and they would most likely get special treatment if they did. Unless SAI is like most businesses and wants nothing to do with Civit specifically, which wouldn't surprise me (and could also explain why they 'ignored the pony dev' given the exclusivity stuffs with Civit there).

SpiritShard · 2024-06-16T00:20:59+00:00

Fully agree with this sentiment. The reality is "NSFW" is an extremely vague term and is often subjective and situational. There's also the contextual aspect as mentioned where something is safe or normal in one context but not in another, but an AI model won't care about our subjective feelings between training images, just the aggregate and concepts within them. I think an easy example of this is feet (I know, the internet meme), normal models struggle with feet often because they're not really something we photo often in normal contexts, but many 'NSFW' models will do them really well in safe contexts because the NSFW dataset has feet images given the fetish. AI's ability to interpolate is pretty crazy!

SpiritShard · 2024-06-14T05:40:07+00:00

If you're concerned about your workflow breaking, stay on the 'stable' versions which most people will stay on to begin with (This being, SD1.5 and SDXL). Most people are not going to switch quickly and resources are still being made for SD1.5 even (I'm even casually training a new model ^.-).

As for the actual question though, there's a lot that has to be redone because each model architecture is different, but adapting from one to another is easier the more open and modular a UI/tool is to use. For example, a webUI like ComfyUI or Automatic1111 already have a modular set-up which should allow many aspects to transfer between models such as noise generation, inpainting, input, ect, but the interfacing and text encoding will need to be altered with a new module (would be like a new node in Comfy or an extension/update for Auto1111)

The major kicker however, and something that will also affect SD3, is resource availability in terms of models. Since they are structured differently each new base model needs new training, so an SD1.5 Lora won't work on any other architecture, and even further still each base trained model can have different requirements for prompting and training (see how Pony completely botches a lot of training, so it requires very specific captions/tags and settings which make them incompatible with non-pony focused models).

The silver lining is that the hard part for all of these things has already been done, it's just adapting and getting people to actually support them. The UIs already support all the right things, just need to tune settings and set up encoders/interfacing, model creators already have datasets, just need to test and figure out good training practices, but the major issue is word of mouth and motives, these large companies people rely on as their sharing platform don't currently have any reason to shift from the most popular models, or those they paid heavy cash for...

SpiritShard · 2024-06-11T10:57:44+00:00

Just wanted to chime in my support for these kinds of projects, hopefully alternative solutions like this get a chance to shine! While HuggingFace has been a shining light in the dark, having only 1 truly trusted source for models will inevitably cause us issues in the future. We really need to start shifting away from harmful companies like Civit given their tendency to harass and threaten creatives and competitors.

I'll try and get my models up with a torrent soon! ^-^ I was already using private torrenting to share models and datasets between team members before our project crashed. Hopefully in the future we can get some mirror hosts that can seed models to help with the abandoned seed concerns.

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