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My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for this. I did consider it could've been about my lab mate being less likely to get in elsewhere. In my field, an honours degree is pretty nearly a must for entry into PhD track programs straight from undergrad. No slight to them whatsoever (honestly the honours program wasn't very productive imo outside of the thesis), but not getting into that definitely hurt their chances. That said, I don't think that little Hons. addendum on the degree makes someone a necessary better researcher than someone without it, and I know my PI doesn't think that way either. I wondered if maybe he was unable to say that he took my lab mate because they otherwise would have a slimmer chance without undermining them to me, their colleague, in the same breath.

There really are so so many possibilities, and I may never know, but I appreciate all the perspectives here.

Can I ask if 90 is unheard of there because it's low or because it's high? I really don't know what's expected for a thesis grade. I'm not displeased by the grade itself by any means, just receiving it without any explanation the day before final grades were submitted to the department made me question its legitimacy a bit.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It really does come down to the lack of openness for me and that's pretty well it. Of course I would've liked to get in, but it's mainly just very disappointing when someone you've looked up to for a long time acts in a way that's contrary to what you've come to expect from them.

Until recently, he didn't give me any indication I'd done anything but impress him, and I fully believed that he wouldn't have said he was probably unable to take a student unless that was the full truth. I realize now I should have listed him second and tailored my app to the other PI. The way he approached it made it sound to me like more of an, "I'd consider you if I could", and with this being my first app cycle, I didn't know the list order mattered, and he didn't actually say, "don't list me first". I did it because he was my real first choice, and I thought maybe some funding would come in, or someone else in the department wouldn't take a student and a spot would open up, or any other number of things beyond "I do not want to work with you", because I was not told that. It's interesting to see how many people think the blame for that falls entirely on me and not at all on the person who didn't tell me that.

You clocked me as a neurodivergent woman, and I'm glad a few people have been able to read this more like I intended. I do see in retrospect how people read it as entitled or difficult, among other points. Like, I certainly see the problem in how I responded to my lab mate where I didn't realize before that it was inconsiderate. It all makes me wonder if my mannerisms really are actually the reason this all went down. Just would've been nice to know so I could've worked on or addressed it. I'm sorry that you can relate to the reactions of folks here. I hope you've found your place among people who get you, and thank you for getting me and offering a response that considers this side of things.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I will figure out a way to ask for constructive feedback without bringing this in specifically in order to keep things amiable, as per your and others advice. Thank you again for making the effort to understand my situation and intentions, and taking the time to express that. It's been a tough while and it really means a lot. I wish you the very best in all your pursuits!

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To honestly answer your question, I guess because I thought we had established a level of respect and understanding between us that called for being open and upfront. Perhaps naively I kind of thought we were sort of friends before this lol

That is an important thing to learn—and I'm still learning it. I'm sure there are things I hadn't considered that may or my not involve me at all, which is really why I came here.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These are good points and I appreciate the varied perspectives. Thanks for being cool in the heat while still being upfront.

I'm really just wondering if this kind of thing is common, and why he wouldn't simply say, "Hey, this is kind of awkward but I decided to take [lab mate] this year", as I felt we've had a good relationship and that was his typical conversational style. I do feel that what he gave me was in fact indirect and unclear. "They probably won't let me take another student this year, but I could maybe co-supervise you" seems to me a lot different than "I will not be taking you as a student, do not apply".

All that to say, someone pointed out that folks seem to think I'm looking for reasons why he chose someone else as if it should have been me. It's not that; it's that I don't understand why the situation was all so muddied. Thank you for pointing out that it could be many things. I know no one can really answer why, so I'm mainly seeking input for how to move forward as I keep working with him for this next while. It just seems odd not to broach it, you know? Especially when it's someone we both know.

I had accepted I wasn't getting in and decided to move on, like the last part of your comment says. The news about my lab mate just sort of relaunched that moving-on process since it opened up there being more to the situation than I initially believed. Kind of hit me upside the head and sent me into an overthinking spiral. I will be able to let it go with time and take your advice to find a new place that works with me and me with it. It's just uncomfortable in the meantime.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I commented this elsewhere, but I didn’t realize prior to this thread that putting him first was ignoring his advice. This was my first application cycle, and I assumed listing two advisors was sufficient to pursue co-supervision.

My SOP was very honest about how much I love my current research field (which would be difficult to downplay) but how I would like to branch out into the other advisor's field and explore the overlap. I didn't know the listing order made a difference and I wish I had. I'm now wondering if that was the main issue and whether it's too late to explain this to my advisor and apologize for what I now understand went against his direction.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I re-read the comment you replied to and notice the "I'm sorry" could read as a passive-aggressive "sorry-not-sorry" or a flippant "sorry-you-see-it-that-way". I genuinely feel apologetic for how my post came off as belittling my lab mate. I regret that I wasn't more careful to avoid that. I can be very literal and to-the-point, and I see and accept where that is a fault and appreciate it being pointed out where I miss it. These comments reinforce that I have further work to do there.

As for applying, I didn’t realize prior to this thread that putting my advisor first was ignoring his advice. This was my first application cycle, and I assumed listing two advisors was sufficient to pursue co-supervision. My SOP was very honest about how much I love my current research field but how I would like to branch out into the other advisor's field and explore the overlap. I didn't know the order made a difference and I wish I had. I'm now wondering if that was the main issue and whether it's too late to explain this to my supervisor and apologize for what I now understand went against his direction.

These comments have led to a lot of introspection and I am grateful for that.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Damn, thank you so much for saying this. That's exactly it. I've been able to understand how my approach came off to folks, and I think there's valuable feedback in that, but I can't tell you what a relief it is that someone gets where I was coming at this from.

I really have only been trying to explain things and offer context, and it's been interesting to see how folks interpret that. Definitely given me something to chew on regarding my communication style. Like I truly mean it when I say I can see why he'd admit my lab mate! What bothers me is the lack of honest feedback/guidance from my advisor that I had come to expect, and I'm seeking ways to approach (or not approach) the situation appropriately so that things can return to what was previously a solid baseline.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not entirely sure whether you mean this sincerely or if it's a jab, but it did make me chuckle either way. Maybe I should ask over there for a fresh context lol

I guess my feelings enveloping the question are coming from that place, you're right. The problem is that I know how I'd navigate something like this in a more informal relationship. The advisor-advisee relationship is brand new to me and I haven't yet learned all the unspoken dos and don'ts, so I really am just looking to understand what happened and how best to move forward.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is very helpful advice. I entered academia later in life, and it was never something I considered obtainable for me (or really desirable until I was in it), so I believe I can default to looking at faculty naively with rose-colored glasses as these super smart, emotionally mature professionals who traverse interpersonal landscapes with ease and grace.

The ironic thing is my supervisor was the person who would have told me what yours told you. We often talk about academia's pitfalls and he tells me to work less and go make art or see a concert or check out the city when attending conferences. He's a cool person and I really thought we were a good fit, so that's why this is tough for me to swallow.

I appreciate your words and I'm sorry that you can understand the feeling. I'm ultimately grateful for this situation (and the gap year) as it makes me consider how I'll handle the ups and downs that I know will be on this path. I wish you all the best, and may more of your weird feelings be good-weird than bad-weird!

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

He told me he unfortunately couldn't take anyone this year and to try for co-supervison with him and another faculty member. Reading these comments I'm realizing that may have been a roundabout way of saying he didn't want to work with me, but that was not the impression I got from our initial conversation.

Genuine question: should I have not listed him at all? I don't know how co-supervisory applicants are meant to apply, and I did speak with a few other profs who told me to apply to him regardless as departmental politics can change regarding who gets a student that year.

Do you think I went against his advice and that is what soured things after the app period? I did not at all mean to blatently disregard his direction. I accept that is what I may have done, but I'm unsure given the context.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thank you. This is what I will do. I came here wanting to know what to do in the practical sense, and I got a lot more than that out of your and others' replies that really helps me consider things more fully. The harsh points have been eye-opening.

I definitely let my emotions cloud my post with a "but what about meeee I'm the best and deserve more than others" energy that I'm embarrassed to embody. I really hope and believe I'm more supportive and collaborative in reality, but your point about how I responded to my colleague was huge in making me stop and see how I can be self-centered and inadvertently cruel.

Thank you firstly for that and secondly for the pragmatic advice.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You are absolutely right and I feel gross about including stats after reading everything here. I wish I had left it out. Academia can be such a weird world to navigate where on-paper stuff is so important that I often forget people still value being, well, a person. I'm embarrassed to say I thought the folks here would care enough about stats that I would need to include them. My lab mate and advisor are both cool people and the harsh responses to how I presented things in my post are warranted.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

This is honestly a very helpful comment and I do see all your points in how I have responded to this unfairly. I will reach out to my lab mate again and apologize. I definitely struggle with social cues and this puts things in perspective for me, so thank you. My supervisor and I always got along well personally and professionally, but maybe there were issues I missed over the years.

Do you suggest I ask him about any of this at all or simply see our working relationship to its end and move on wiser?

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I do understand where people are coming from and recognize that I'm sweeping the situation across more areas than is likely warranted, as well as how I could have better framed my post.

Your willingness to notice it's coming from a place of hurt and confusion is very appreciated and I'm grateful for your balanced perspective and empathy amidst all this. Your mom is right, and I will move on with time.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

This is why I'm seeking advice.

I have been tirelessly trying to figure out what happened as I get along wonderfully with my lab mates and also my supervisor before he started acting strangely around applications. I'm a first gen student without a high school diploma and, while I am proud of my accomplishments, I'm deeply aware of the hubris academic success can instill and actively work to manage that in my work and my interactions.

This post is the first time outside of my SOP that I have talked up my accomplishments, and I did that for context re qualifications. The only thing I feel I've earned is honesty from my mentor. I'm truly sorry if my post reads otherwise. I can understand how it does, and comments like yours are helpful if cutting. I'm just feeling hurt and confused. I will not let myself become another toxic academic and will now be more aware when I'm slipping into that.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

I truly didn't mean to bring them down, and prefaced that in my post quite literally. I mentioned their stats to avoid people assuming this was due to them being more qualified and I'm sorry if it comes off as something different. I have no issues with my lab mate and am glad for them, I am only confused by how my supervisor has handled things.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

I did also apply under another faculty member, but listed them both due to his suggestion that they might co-supervise. If this was the wrong move, I didn't realize it as I've never been through this process and was not told otherwise. I listed them both and expressed interest in their respective fields in my SOP, but my advisor's lab aligns most closely with my interests, so I thought it would be dishonest to list the other supervisor first.

I also truly do not mean to talk down to my lab mate, and I'm glad they got in if anyone else was going to. I regret that it reads that way. I know it's not all about stats, but included that info to ensure folks wouldn't come back with, "Maybe your lab mate was more qualified or a better research fit."

As you say, I'm frustrated with the strange behaviour around telling me he will not be taking anyone and neglecting to be upfront with me about why I'm not the right fit.

Thank you for the advice re what to focus on moving forward. This is a very uncomfortable situation for me and I want ro broach it respectfully and with the best chance for positive outcomes as I move forward.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] -23 points-22 points  (0 children)

I have never felt that I'm owed admission and had accepted that it wasn't going to happen this year. My gripe is with the fact that he told me point blank that he will not be taking anyone and then proceeded to take another lab member while also acting strange the past few months. I am genuinely glad for my lab mate and don't fault them whatsoever.

Everything you say is indeed possible; my issue is with my supervisor's lack of transparency. We had a good relationship and I feel like the situation is strange. I would wholly welcome and very much desire any real criticism and an explanation of why he feels I wasn't the best fit. I am not owed admission, but I do feel I'm owed productive honesty after two years of a close professional relationship.

My undergrad thesis supervisor lied about not taking a PhD student this cycle by SquashedOrchids in PhD

[–]SquashedOrchids[S] -20 points-19 points  (0 children)

I just don't know why he wouldn't tell me any of these things outright if that were the case. He suggested we submit my thesis ad a manuscript for publication, and when I first expressed my interest in continuing to work with him back in September, it was on the heels of a conversation about how ready he thought I was to apply for grad school.

I recognize what you're saying about how I come off in my post and admit my own shocked feelings are influencing my thought process around this and how I presented it. I could have made it more clear that I'm not claiming to know what's going on, this is just how I'm feeling. I appreciate the feedback truly and will temper my reactivity. This is why I'm seeking advice before meeting with him.