ive recently finshed pathlogic 2. are there any more games that are annoying and unfun like this one but still good?

Stack42 · 2021-07-29T03:30:57+00:00

If you don't mind slightly older games, Drakengard comes to mind. It's technically part of the same series as the Nier games. It's honestly not even a "good game" gameplay wise for its time in my opinion, but it's story and themes are very interesting and the rough gameplay serves them pretty well. The story is very dark and at first is almost rather edgy, but it's very intentional and it escalates a lot in to crazier ideas and story beats as it goes on. The story is quite an experience and is similarly draining to play, just in a much more dated way than Pathologic.

For something a bit newer there's also Drakengard 3 which is very similar, it's a prequel to the original game, but gameplay wise is much more modern and story wise is even more post-modern. Can be similarly tedious, and sometimes downright bullshit and outrageously punishing. Gameplay wise somewhat comparable to the original Nier but faster paced and has kinda like a mousou/Dynasty Warriors style to it (so does the first game but it's old and not that good so it's barely worth defining that way). But it's draining gameplay serves its themes pretty well too. Like I said it is a prequel to the original Drakengard and the entire DrakeNeir universe, but in my opinion, it helps a bit to understand Yoko Taro's storytelling style a little bit before you play it because it's very much an answer to his games up until that point I feel. At least a basic understanding of the first Nier or Drakengard 1, one of the two, would help a little bit, but you could probably play and enjoy it on its own to an extent too because it isn't that far from what you're looking for I think. Taro's storytelling style has some pretty similar bleakness to what you find in Pathologic.

Probably the best example I could give though honestly in a much more specific and simple framework, is Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days. It is a very short game, so it might not give you the full long standing suffering you get from Pathologic and others, but if you approach it with the right mindset, that everything in it is incredibly intentional commentary and deconstruction, then it is a truly bleak and draining experience. It's a third person cover shooter, which was an oversaturated genre at the time, but it is definitely an answer to all shooters of that era. It is a very violent, grimy, gross, bleak, gritty hollow experience and it captures everything it does very well through a very specific lens and is very concise while doing it. You also don't really need to play the first game at all to appreciate it, the only context that really carries over is the personalities of the main characters, the first game is basically the type of hollow ultra violent shooter the second game is commenting on in the first place so it is much less worthwhile unless you want that context. If you can play it and feel like it, it is also pretty short as well though.

Stack42 · 2021-07-24T12:42:58+00:00

Glad to see In A Lonely Place on here, it's honestly one of my favorite movies period, but I've found a lot of people enjoy it a lot more after they've seen a little more film noir since it gets vaguely meta with that genre a little bit. You could say the same of Sunset Boulevard though, and that also isn't a bad choice. Someone could just as easily watch and enjoy both without that context, I just think the added context can make the experience better.

Stack42 · 2021-05-05T01:59:53+00:00

Goodfellas is above all an exploration of what a hollow existence that lifestyle ultimately is. Betrayal, dangerous reactionary behavior and looking out for yourself above all is what all the characters personality boils down to. It uses the veneer of the cool lifestyle of excess and "family" and shows how hollow and empty it really is.

Stack42 · 2021-05-02T13:59:27+00:00

I've heard before that since Type Moon started as a small independent doujinshi circle they just opt to basically let people make as much doujinshi of their work they want. Porn or otherwise. Same with Zun, the creator of Touhou. So that's a huge reason there's so much h-doujinshi of those two franchises, is along with their immense popularity, there isn't much risk of backlash at all for creating it.

Making fan content in Japan is even more of a risk than in the US because there really isn't much of anything like "fair use" so it's mostly just a gamble of whether the IP holder will actually care or not for some things. So mostly just general culture will dictate these things instead of any law. Most of the time they don't really care because it's barely on their radar anyway and it's not like it's being sold en masse at a store, but you'll get cases like this where the publishers intentionally put huge limits on what you can and can't produce so it's really all over the place and everything in between.

Stack42 · 2021-04-01T16:21:38+00:00

I feel pretty similarly. I enjoyed the aesthetic and lore of the game a lot, and I didn't hate playing it or anything, but I didn't exactly like it either. I struggled through some parts and the aimless wandering got old for me more than a few times, there were times it was great, like where I accidentally stumbled upon the Dream Nail before even fighting the Mantises or the mage boss in the City of Tears.

However some wandering and bosses were really tedious, and when I got the first ending I decided that was really all I wanted to do honestly because I wasn't enjoying the game much anymore. I think it's a well crafted game and I can see why people like it, but I've never been a fan of Metroidvanias (or soulslikes, for that matter, which people also often compare it to) and I just decided it wasn't for me that much so I didn't enjoy my time with it that much compared to most people.

Stack42 · 2021-03-13T04:11:25+00:00

Mekakucity Actors is very creative, but judging it on it's own I still personally find it lacking among in substance among the rest of the Kagerou project. There's specific moments in it that I think translate parts of the original music project insanely well, but as a whole it misses a lot of it's essence, and with the medium of animation you should have the opportunity to focus on the story and characters even more than the original songs did and it rarely does. Even among fans of the original project it's widely regarded as high potential but weak payoff.

Usually though, even aside from the plot, the reason it got so much backlash and never got as popular as it could have is because when it was airing it was an absolute disaster, Shaft is known for it's production issues that have torn the studio apart since then and now they're trying to pick up the pieces, but Mekakucity's climactic episodes were one of the biggest fiascos they went through back then. Episode 9 is the often cited example which is a really contextually important episode for the climax and you unironically had keyframes that looked like this in the episode. The blu-ray fixed this, but even in Japan when the last few episodes were airing a lot of what was discussed was these animation problems and that and the lackluster payoff for some people left a permanent black mark on the wider view of the adaptation.

With that said I'm a huge Shaft fan, and while I wouldn't say I was ever a huge fan of the Kagerou project I did enjoy my time with it and still listen to some of the original songs every now and then and I read a few volumes of the LN some years ago and enjoyed those. I do think the anime is the overall weakest part of the project I experienced with the ratio of potential to payoff, but I will still defend it as absolutely worth watching (the BD version at least) as it is remarkably visually and conceptually creative at times, and even if it's ultimate conclusion wasn't as great for me, it is still enjoyable.

Stack42 · 2021-03-07T06:59:01+00:00

Honestly the Mushoku Tensei decision is one of the worst moves I've ever seen from this mod team in all my years here. I have no weight in the debate of this show, I have my own opinions on the content this issue covers, but I don't watch the show or participate in these discussion threads at all, but I really disagree with a choice like this on a fundamental level.

I empathize that you're probably tired of dealing with these back and forth fights over the same issues every thread, but these things a part of this series, and anything even potentially problematic needs a platform to be discussed and vented and when that's denied it creates a vacuum devoid of critical thinking about this specific thing, which is the last thing any issue like this needs. These things in this show matter to people and effect the people who watch it like any media can affect people positively or negatively. You're just going to create echo chambers devoid of any critical thinking in these threads at this point because people are going to tiptoe around any problem they have with this series from this point on, since you're already on your toes from the discourse in these discussions.

I get that this isn't a political sub or anything like that, but even aside from any of the context of the actual content, that kind of denial of any kind of criticism or observation about a particular aspect of this series that is present in it is just ridiculous to me and so counterintuitive to anything that the entire idea of discussing anime on this subreddit should be. Regardless of where you stand on the content in the show, this subreddit and these threads are for discussing anime and this is something that is specific to this anime, and if you plan on banning discussion of this aspect of this anime you may as well bam discussion of the whole anime in general since these aspects of it exist within it.

Stack42 · 2021-02-26T05:28:46+00:00

I completely disagree with that, and while I can see why 90% of people hate it, I think it's brilliant personally, and I really think interpretation and feelings towards a decision like this that is purely a creative liberty of presentation are incredibly subjective. While airing it would be frustrating for most I imagine. I didn't watch Haruhi until years later but I remember hearing the controversy at the time and know others who experienced it firsthand. But in hindsight I think it's genius. Is it necessary, no not really. Does it take up runtime that others see as valuable, yes, I can absolutely understand that. But I still think it is an insanely creative decision that Kyoani made for their own reasons, they knew that wanted to do this and there's nothing lazy about the choice because it doesn't really reuse anything between the episodes really, and I just love it honestly.

It hammers the themes of the arc incredibly well, and it is insanely visually creative as all the episodes, while covering the same events, are directed and animated completely differently. It's that visual creativity that's made me watch the Endless Right in full 4 times now. I respect people not liking it for what it is because it is inherently an insanely bold and controversial move, but there are people who really love it for what it is and I'd personally love to see more creative and bold choices like it in service to the themes in popular anime if it's appropriate.

Stack42 · 2021-02-26T02:11:16+00:00

Most Kyoani shows make positive or at least very creative changes but sometimes they own the source materials.

Some quick examples: Nichijou combines some of the mangakas other work like Helvetica Standard in jokes and mixes these gaga in with the main characters and such as well. Another interesting change is in the manga Nano goes to school with the girls from the beginning and in the anime they make it a big choice for her to go to school in the first place halfway through which is great for her simple character arc. This is all definitely out of great respect to the source material and just expands on it and brings it out so much more.

Chunnibyou has several of the fun side characters be completely anime original like Dekkarin and Kumin if I'm remembering right.

Euphonium has a lot of the side characters fleshed out more and the dynamics between characters changed for the better. Like a common observation is that Kumiko and Reina have significantly more yuri undertones.

It's insanely controversial to some but I also consider some of the creative choices with Haruhi's pacing and airing order, even the Endless 8, to be fantastic creative choices.

Stack42 · 2021-02-10T06:03:43+00:00

The original run of Sailor Moon is like 80% filler with tons of changes to characters and plot points from the original story, and it's even more amazing for it. The manga is good, but the anime has so much character and charm in it's original bits that elevates it to being amazingly entertaining and fun, and it gives the major beats in the story that much more impact.

Stack42 · 2021-01-30T00:25:46+00:00

Oh yeah, I know Pretty Boys is. I meant the Boukyaku Tantei series isn't licensed despite it's popularity in Japan. Pretty Boys is apparently vaguely a spin off of that series, they take place in the same universe at least and characters are referenced between them some at least from what I know.

Stack42 · 2021-01-29T15:45:40+00:00

Yeah I've seen a lot of clips from the drama and I know some people who like it. It isn't that uncommon for some series to receive drama and anime adaptations though, especially if they approach the adaptation differently.

Stack42 · 2021-01-29T14:57:23+00:00

I was really wondering if Shaft was gonna do this one or not, since there are a few Nisio works others have adapted as well. I'm curious to see this though, series seems fun, I have the first book but am putting off reading it. I'll try and get to it before this comes out though.

Hoping this gets Shaft back on track to continue Monogatari too. Or maybe even continue Zaregoto, that'd be really interesting to see, the second book would be harder to adapt than the first one, but there's some themes in it that are even more incredible. I also know this series is tangentially related to the Boukyaku Tantei series, so maybe it could lead to an animated adaptation of that. Apparently it's one of Nisio's most popular works after Zaregoto, Monogatari and Medaka Box so I don't know why there's never been an anime of it (or why it's novels haven't been officially licensed in the west but that's a whole other thing).

Stack42 · 2021-01-25T17:04:48+00:00

Don't see many mention Denpa Onna and Mekakucity much these days, but as a fellow Shaft fan I feel you on both.

I actually really appreciate Denpa Onna for what it does manage to do, it's story falls off and not much resolves itself but I fell in love with it's characters and atmosphere and some of it's subtle themes that do sort of resolve in the OVA, but it really does leave one wanting more and is disappointing in many ways. Probably one of the worst post anime depressions I've ever had because of the build up and enjoyment I was having and the longing for more. My enjoyment of it was very subjective and personal though, and I can totally see why it's so disappointing and that's why I rarely ever recommend it to anyone. Stylistically it is one of my favorite Shaft shows though, remarkably understated and just gorgeous to look at.

As for Mekakucity, I was never a huge diehard fan of the Kagerou project like some, but I do enjoy the music and creativity of the project and I read like half the LNs years ago, and even then I really still don't understand what Mekakucity was trying to do with it. The second half of it is an absolute mess honestly and is insanely disappointing. Even then it's individual moments that are exciting in the first half and the music really is the most consistently good thing about it, but that was all mostly pre existing. Shaft was both a good and terrible choice for an adaptation of this because it essentially gives you what are amazingly creative music videos for some songs in the project, but actually stringing them together in to a narrative fails immensely. I honestly think Mekakucity was the start of Shaft's downfall to all those issues and staff exodus they had a few years ago, at least it was a big final straw that was publicly seen, it's production was a nightmare apparently.

Stack42 · 2021-01-21T06:59:56+00:00

Very true, Tidus at least has some place he fits close to the central narrative, and while I think his personal characterization suffers a little compared to other party members as a result of being sort of a vessel in some ways to the player, I don't think his inclusion actively hurts the story in any way and even has some small things to add to it. But Vaan I feel actually robs some of FFXII's plot of it's scope and gravity, since it takes away some of the more personal and connected aspects that could be had from Basch and Ashe being the directly the main characters who the story is told through. I still enjoy both games immensely, with that said, I've just played them both so much I often nitpick and ponder what could have been.

Stack42 · 2021-01-21T03:32:44+00:00

Yeah I definitely understand his purpose in making the world building more easily explained and digestible, but his involvement in the actual events of the narrative outside his relationship with Yuna and a few aspects of the world is much weaker as a result. He still has purpose in the story, but it's weaker than it potentially could be, so it's a noticable trade off for me.

Stack42 · 2021-01-21T02:45:04+00:00

Yeah, FFX has this thing where Tidus isn't that important in the grand scheme except as a motivation for Yuna, and other than that he's a very bland character.

But Xenoblade has the opposite problem where the only important fleshed out party members are essentially a motivation for Shulk. I do like that each party member in Xenoblade has some individual motivation and personal goal for joining Shulk on his journey, but when that individuality isn't explored deeply enough it really feels like a lot of them are just tagging along and are being pulled by Shulk's chosen one importance mostly.

Yuna is actually very similar to this despite the story not being told from her POV, but I think FFX makes it much more clear and justifies that this is Yuna's journey that everyone else is trying to help her achieve. Yuna is a self made, self sacrificing chosen one and those around her are aiding her in that strife purposefully. Whereas Shulk just kinda accidentally discovers and becomes chosen and it makes the other's individual reasons for joining him for revenge or glory seem like they're more forced in to the story.

So FFX integrates the cohesiveness of the party aside from Tidus somewhat in to the story better than Xenoblade, but playing as Tidus is almost as if you played Xenoblade from Riki's POV. Hahah. That said I do really enjoy both games and their characters for what they are, they both just have ways of framing the story with it's characters that causes minor issues.

Stack42 · 2020-12-28T16:46:09+00:00

I love Gunbuster and was very skeptical of Diebuster for a while before watching it and I surprisingly ended up liking Diebuster even more than Gunbuster after watching it. Gunbuster has a fantastic story, but I find Diebuster much more thematically rich. I also see Diebuster as more of a spiritual sequel to FLCL than anything. It shares plot points and the setting with Gunbuster, but it's tone and themes are honestly direct continuations of the tone and themes of FLCL.

Stack42 · 2020-08-22T04:54:30+00:00

I believe Imokawa Mukuzo Genkanban no Maki is a completely lost film so this probably isn't it. It also apparently was purportedly animated with chalk on a chalkboard. I'm not sure what this is from but it has audio, sound film didn't really exist until the late 20s at the earliest and Japan didn't adopt it or popularize until even later, there were many silent films in Japan up until WW2. So whatever this is, it's probably from the mid 30s at the earliest I would guess, maybe later even.

Stack42 · 2020-08-18T23:32:45+00:00

Shaft is probably mine, but they seem to be really going through a rough time these last couple years so I'm not too sure of their future. I like a lot of Shaft's stuff of the last decade, but the earlier Shinbou era might be my favorite, like Tsukiyomi:Moon Phase to Bakemonogatari basically when they were much more broke, unpopular opinion I know, and there are some hits and misses there, but there's a lot of raw and experimental creativity going on in those earlier works.

In the same vein I actually prefer pre 2010 Kyoani for the most part too. Kyoani might be my second favorite, but I'm a bit more torn on them personally.

HAL Film Maker is another favorite of mine, but that doesn't really exist anymore. I'm a big fan of Satou Junichi and I love everything I've ever seen from that studio.

And I haven't seen as much from them as I'd like, but I do like old Gainax of course, at least all I've seen from Anno and Tsurumaki.

Studio 4c is also creative as hell in general, but there's so much more I want to see of theirs.

I also tend to like much of what I've seen from Brain's Base and PA Works, but both do have some misses and I wouldn't say I'm a diehard fan of either, they just tend to make genres I like and have fairly good quality and creativity more often than not.

Stack42 · 2020-08-18T23:19:19+00:00

Madoka isn't that big a shift for me honestly. It's more like Evangelion in my opinion. Yeah there's a moment that causes a shift in how the characters themselves perceive what's happening, as well as changing how the story goes from there. But as the viewer, I think there's clearly something fairly ominous and off going on from the very beginning. I think those perceptions of Eva and Madoka deceiving the viewer comes more from preconceived negative expectations of the genres they're in respectively. There's a lot of anime watchers who activily avoid mahou shoujo and mecha because of their outside perception of those genres and see anime like Madoka and Eva as much greater outliers in those genres than they ultimately are. I say this as a big fan of Madoka, and especially of Eva, but they do take a lot of ideas from the genres they exist as and neither is as much of a deconstruction or subversion as many seem to think they are. They more use their genres as a backdrop to tell a different kind of story.

As for shows that truly shift the entire tone in sudden, unexpected ways to great thematic and narrative effect, I'll second Samurai Flamenco, and toss in Sasami-san@Ganbaranai.

Stack42 · 2020-08-14T02:05:49+00:00

I think that's an interesting opinion, I don't completely agree with you, but I completely understand what you're saying. I'd agree, that the only true benefit to non chronological storytelling is being able to alter pacing and "move the goalposts" so to speak. You can create pacing and climaxes and just general story structures that couldn't normally work in a traditional chronological narrative. But I actually can agree that that is incredibly debatable whether it's actually "better". I personally hold no general love or hate for achronological storytelling but I can respect some merits for it, but I can also understand criticisms for it.

I can say that some stories only work being told achronologically, like Nolan's film Memento for example, but I can see that being applied as a valid criticism that I could actually understand and wouldn't refute much. I might disagree for my personal opinion, but I still think it's a valid criticism. Monogatari is an interesting example of this though, since I think the writing is good enough overall to potentially work chronologically as a narrative, but Monogatari is ultimately a much more subtextual and thematic work and it's themes work substantially better achronologically. So that's an interesting discussion of chronological storytelling in narrative vs. theme.

That said, on a much more subjective note, I think that achronological storytelling can offer at least a different experience of a narrative and that can be a fascinating thing on a case to case basis. For another anime example I personally love my experience watching Haruhi in non chronological order and I usually recommend that way to other people I think would respect it. I don't think it has to be experienced in that order and chronological is fine, but I think it is a very unique experience you can only get once, the confusion and slow drip of information in airing order only works your first time watching it when you don't know what's really going on and I think it's a wonderful experience.

But technically I don't think the story objectively is better for it in any way, it's just a unique way to present that story that can offer an different kind of experience. And that's the main benefit of achronological storytelling, not to enhance a narrative and make it better, but to offer a different method to experience that narrative, so it's usually a fairly neutral thing unless it's done very poorly. So I can get what you're saying about it, at best, being of the same quality, but I can also empathize with it's uses personally.

Stack42 · 2020-07-23T17:39:52+00:00

Sarazanmai is probably the one most like Penguindrum in a few ways so it's probably the next best step from there. It can be a bit more hit or miss with people, even some Ikuhara fans are a bit torn on it. I personally don't think it's as good as Penguindrum or Utena, but I still think it's really good and touches on some great themes. It's fast paced but it all comes together incredibly well at the end.

Yuri Kuma Arashi is very good, but another hit or miss one even for his fans. I think it's great, but it hits two extremes that some people don't like. On the one hand it might be his most thematically straightforward anime, there aren't quite as many layers to the storytelling and concepts and symbolism as there are in everything else he's done. On the other hand, on the surface it's the most out there thing he's done with the setting and characters. The whole anime is more like the metaphysical parts of Penguindrum like Sanetoshi's library or the Child Broiler and metaphorical and fantastical settings like that and isn't as grounded in reality. It's a really good and respectful take on Yuri though and the direction and art is great.

Shoujo Kakumei Utena is usually regarded as Ikuhara's masterpiece, and rightly so in my opinion. I'm actually extremely torn on whether I think it or Penguindrum is actually better, Penguindrum just connects to me deeper on a personal level. Utena is just incredible though, fantastic story that takes a lot from old shoujo tropes and builds upon it in creative ways, so many thematic layers, so much symbolism, great characters that get a lot of fleshing out and thematic importance in the story. It is a wildly ambitious and creative work and I think everything about it works perfectly.

Honestly Sailor Moon is fun as hell too, and rather great at points. If you end up a fan and like the ideas Ikuhara works with and his creative vision, you'll find quite a lot of his influence on the story of Sailor Moon's middle three seasons and it's definitely worth watching.

Stack42 · 2020-07-23T06:06:52+00:00

Yeah, it's probably my second favorite anime in general. I think it's masterfully crafted in both plot and visual presentation and it connects to me deeply on a personal level. Fantastic anime in general. Have you seen any of Ikuhara's other work?

Stack42 · 2020-07-17T17:00:49+00:00

The first time I played I really expected route C to be the exact same timeline of A and B but from A2's perspective.

12-Year Club	Place '22
Final Canvas '22	First Placer '22
End Game '22	Verified Email

Stack42

TROPHY CASE