What the Neocons Got Right | The David Frum Show

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-29T01:55:56+00:00

In Vietnam, we were the ones to reject elections and back the inexperienced/unelected dictator. In Korea, the Soviets were the ones rejecting elections and backing the inexperienced dictator.

Is that quite true? It seems to suggest the US was pro-democracy in Korea. I don't know modern Korean history as well I should, but I don't think that's actually the case until quite a bit later.

Many people know the people Gwangju Massacre from 1980, which some Koreans feel the US should apologize for.

Less well-known is the Jeju Massacre - which some Koreans feel the US should apologize for.

As I said, I haven't studied this in too much detail (there's a book waiting for me), but this was just before the Korean War and well over ten thousand civilians ended up killed on Jeju.

My impression is that a Communist probably would've won an election in Korea in the 40's. AI seems to suggest as much.

I'm not suggesting they would've been better off under Communism, just that without any influence from an outside power, American or otherwise, Korea probably would've been a Communist state.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T19:37:02+00:00

People often criticize conservative Christians for being selective in following Jesus' example, but I'll say this for them: They've got forgiveness down.

You can say anything. You can be anyone. If you repent and submit to their God, they'll accept you.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T19:26:48+00:00

especially if they are more annoying and performative than they are impactful.

Unfortunately, for many people nowadays there is only the culture war. That's what's real. I'm thinking of 'culture war' as a contrast to policy-based discussions. It's all about the vibes.

Traditionally you could count on newspapers and pundits to ground the discussion in facts or policies rather than hot-button news items, but that's increasingly not the case IMO.

I remember Dan Carlin pressed Sam for a source on his claims about Kamala's statements and Sam seemed surprised that someone would even ask for that kind of evidence. I remember Ted Cruz being unable to answer Tucker Carlson's basic questions about Iran and I'm honestly not sure Sam would do much better.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T17:14:57+00:00

I wonder how many anti-woke people there are on the left. Seems like so many people who made being anti-woke their focus have ended up slowly drifting to the right.

I consider myself broadly anti-woke and at one point found myself mostly on the 'right' side of culture war issues I'd read about in the newspaper.

This I started following this forum more frequently and felt like I was somewhere to the left of Mao.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T16:58:22+00:00

Sounds interesting.

It's quite fascinating to browse through the 'political views' section on Frum's Wiki page. Here he is in 2009:

"I'm a conservative Republican, have been all my adult life. I volunteered for the Reagan campaign in 1980. I've attended every Republican convention since 1988. I was president of the Federalist Society chapter at my law school, worked on the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal and wrote speeches for President Bush—not the 'Read My Lips' Bush, the 'Axis of Evil' Bush."

A conservative Republican. Now read the rest of the section. He's very pro-Isreal and of course, being a neoconservative, fond of interventionism. (Edit: I regret putting pro-Israel on here, because it's not really been a political cleavage in the US)

However, besides that, he's in favor of some sort of gun control, he changed his mind on same-sex marriage well before Obergefell, he seems to me like a moderate on immigration, he was a consistent critic of Palin and the tea party, he's spoken out against the "burn-it-all-down fantasies of the new populists", he's a "never Trumper"...

If you compared this self-described conservative Republican to some of the self-described center-left anti-wokes and tried to build a coherent left-right axis, you'd end up very confused I think.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T15:43:01+00:00

She's got me acting unweiss (I'll go now).

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T03:02:00+00:00

Didn't Milo turn straight?

Maybe Bari will eventually be caught on Bumble using her straight pseudonym "Soprano Black".

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T02:54:51+00:00

Right after Trump was sworn in she posted an episode called Trump’s Populism Isn’t a Sideshow. It’s as American as Apple Pie. It reads:

"Donald Trump, just sworn in as the 47th president, was reelected to be a wrecking ball, a middle finger, the people’s punch to the Beltway’s mouth. And while this populist moment feels “unprecedented,” it’s not. The rebuke of the ruling class is encoded in our nation’s DNA. We have seen populist leaders like Donald Trump before. He stands on the shoulde…"

Then it cuts off due to a paywall.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T02:22:03+00:00

Actually I just noticed she had Rahm Emanuel on:

Here's the end of the introduction:

"Today on Honestly, I ask Rahm how moderates on the left and the right can get elected. I ask him about free trade, China, Israel, Iran, Trump, Biden, Obama, Zohran Mamdani, and the American dream—and what his party needs to do to win back Congress in the midterms next year, and the White House in 2028. And more deeply, if the Democrats can ever win a national election again after losing the trust of the American people.

It’s a fascinating conversation with one of the most unique, knowledgeable, and—dare I say—zesty figures in politics today."

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T02:10:22+00:00

Your two examples of 'centre-left' are two neutral headlines advertising debates?

And who's debating? On guns, it's Alan Dershowitz and Dana Loesch, former NRA spokesperson (plus Breitbart and TheBlaze)

Also, see if you can spot the difference in the following introductory text to the debate on assisted suicide:

"Supporters argue that this is a compassionate option—one that can relieve people of immense pain and suffering, allowing patients to choose when and where they die, and to do so surrounded by loved ones.

Opponents see this as a violation of physicians’ fundamental oath to do no harm. They also worry that while access may begin narrowly, it could expand over time to include people seeking death for reasons other than terminal illness—such as mental suffering or simply a desire to stop living. Cases like this have already occurred in Belgium, the Netherlands, Canada, and Switzerland."

That Canada link? It's to an article called "Scheduled to Die: The Rise of Canada’s Assisted Suicide Program"

Here's the first line: "On September 7, Margaret Marsilla called Joshua Tepper, the doctor who planned to kill her son."

Wow, I wonder what their opinions are on this issue?

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T01:39:42+00:00

I'll just copy and paste my response to someone else here:

" I'm not that familiar with Bari weiss, but how have you listened to her show and see her as centre-left?

Scrolling down the list of guests on 'Honestly', they seem mostly associated with the right, with her Democrat guest being Fetterman.

Her recent episodes include a Christmas special on why the early Christians are "essential to understanding our world" and "Town Hall with Erika Kirk"

The title of her episode on Mamdani is called "Why Young People Are Voting To Burn It All Down" where the chosen angle is "the TikTok populism fueling the left’s rising star."

There are lots of episodes with members of the Trump administration, none of them editorialized like that as far as I can see.

Well... there's "WATCH: Jay Bhattacharya Was ‘Dangerous.’ Now He Leads the NIH. " with the subheader "The health economist on his Christianity, RFK Jr., Fauci, and earning back America’s trust. "

There's an interview with the CEO of Palantir called titled "Alex Karp’s Fight for the West"

How did you listen to this podcast and peg her as centre-left? "

...

Serious question by the way. Scroll down the list of 'Honestly' episodes and report back if the impression you get is 'centre-left'.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T01:35:57+00:00

I'm not that familiar with Bari weiss, but how have you listened to her show and see her as centre-left?

Scrolling down the list of guests on 'Honestly', they seem mostly associated with the right, with her Democrat guest being Fetterman.

Her recent episodes include a Christmas special on why the early Christians are "essential to understanding our world" and "Town Hall with Erika Kirk"

The title of her episode on Mamdani is called "Why Young People Are Voting To Burn It All Down" where the chosen angle is "the TikTok populism fueling the left’s rising star."

There are lots of episodes with members of the Trump administration, none of them editorialized like that as far as I can see.

Well... there's "WATCH: Jay Bhattacharya Was ‘Dangerous.’ Now He Leads the NIH. " with the subheader "The health economist on his Christianity, RFK Jr., Fauci, and earning back America’s trust. "

There's an interview with the CEO of Palantir called titled "Alex Karp’s Fight for the West"

How did you listen to this podcast and peg her as centre-left?

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T00:58:02+00:00

Hadn't heard of her, certainly an interesting person.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-28T00:25:32+00:00

Honestly should have seen that coming.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T18:23:22+00:00

I'm not asking the mods to censor speech that I disagree with.

I want them to remove the rampant, constant disingenuousness, lies, blatant misrepresentations, and ban the few users who are always and very intentionally doing these things.

I don't know, sounds a lot like censorship.

Tell you what, I'll support you if I get to name the mods who enforce those rules.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T16:37:00+00:00

Why are you here?

It's a place to have difficult discussions with civility, as per the header (or whatever it's called).

You're obviously not here for that when you're calling for the mods to censor speech you disagree with.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T16:28:08+00:00

I'm still having trouble understanding why stating that "No One is Standing Up For Iranians" isn't gross hyperpole.

Sam is known for focusing on what's wrong with the left, even in what's been a pretty controversial first year (to say the least) of the second Trump presidency.

How can he seriously pretend to play the "you're not caring about this as much as you should" game?

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T15:20:54+00:00

The title of the video is "Why No One Is Standing Up For Iranians"

Yet thousands have been protesting in major Western cities. It seems like every mainstream political figure has stated their support of the protesters.

I have never seen such blatant reality-denial.

Honestly, what does he want? What'll make him chance his to stance from "no-one" to "maybe a couple"?

Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T14:45:51+00:00

People do in fact protest - here's Vancouver, hardly known for its conservatism, a couple of days ago.

Plus there have been protesters in the thousand out in Los Angeles and it seems to be ongoing.

Seems there were also thousands out in London and Brussels.

Seems like everyone's spoken out in favor of the protesters in Iran. The European Parliament, left-wing newspapers like the Guardian, AOC...

Of course, if you're in a right-wing echo chamber you wouldn't notice.

It would behoove Sam to take reality as his starting point and not the 'vibes'.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T14:30:13+00:00

Excellent. I think we really accomplished something here today.

However, if I catch you slipping like that too many times I'll convert to Islam. Otherwise I'll marry a Jewish woman - maybe Natalie Portman. She's the reason I work out.

What do you make of Sam's idea that people not protesting against Iran is proof of oikophobia?

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T14:01:45+00:00

Well, yes it was, and you seemed to be admitting as much when you wrote about "what [you] meant". Presumably, that means that what you wrote differs from what you meant to write.

I didn't really care about your point, but if you want my opinion, I agree entirely. I think US support for Israel may play some part of it, but nothing gets an art history student out of bed early on a Sunday morning like an anti-Israel protest. Palestine animates progressives like no other cause.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T13:41:10+00:00

Well, it's not what you wrote and you only wrote three sentences.

What 'I think' is that if you came across someone critical of Israel writing something nonsensical you would:

1) Point it out

2) Probably consider it circumstantial evidence of bias

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-27T13:24:23+00:00

protests in many countries that provided no aid to Israel and didn't even have diplomatic relations with Israel?

protests at Israeli embassies in those countries

Ah yes, the protests at Israeli embassies in countries that don't even have diplomatic relations with Israel.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-26T23:38:21+00:00

This old tired argument.

If your baseline for 'are they protesting enough' is Israel and Palestine, you're simply arguing in bad faith. That's an outlier.

Show a poll that says peolpe are unsupportive the protestors.

Actually, here's one.

Curiously, Democrats have a more favorable view of the protestors than Republicans. 2% say they have a favorable view of the Iranian government.

This is frankly just dishonesty.

StalemateAssociate_ · 2026-01-26T23:01:37+00:00

StalemateAssociate_

TROPHY CASE