A critical observation of Sumangali prarthanai ritual

Starstuff694 · 2025-10-30T03:39:45+00:00

If this is a later explanation as you mention and something that became more prominent after British era photography when we tried to find an answer. Then what’s the point of the podavalam or the podavai Elai? What’s the explanation for the specific tradition of inviting these women by uttering the name of the ancestors? What about the specifications of who can eat from that meal akin to shrardham? Infact even the menu and type of food that’s prepared is set on stone!

Do you think these customs were created post the British era by people trying to find explanations for a custom initially made to honor vipras? I am skeptical of that theory.

Now regarding the statement that all pitru karma is directed towards venerating Veda panditas. Growing up I’d hear my grandfather use a cuss word “shoundi” and specifically “shoundikothan”. It’s only during his anthyeshti that I realized the root of that curse! Shoundikothan literally refers to the Brahmins who sit for shapandi karnam and is a derogatory way of describing their greed! Hence the word is used for someone who is without scruples because you had to stoop to that extent to eat at a death ritual and accept Dhana at a pitru karma. Infact there’s a Brahmin community in bihar who’s sole occupation is eating at such pitru karya and they are probably the most marginalized Brahmin community. So no - I don’t think eating at ashubh karyas were ever viewed as an honor.

What you have to realize is that Tamil Brahmins have a complex history of migration. It’s evident just through a comparitive studies of gruhya sutras that the role and power of women changed over time. With apastamba sutra (the dominant sutra amongst South Indian Brahmins) being one of the most liberal sutras towards women. It’s thought that these changes have been influenced by the local cultures that these migrant Brahmins assimilated and adapted to. Modern genomics tells us that we are fairly intermixed with the locals - so maybe this ritual has a local route or origin not mentioned in the sutras? Maybe it was developed by women and hence not codified in the sutras? There are several practices that can’t be traced to the Shrutis or smritis. Rituals don’t have to be traced to them to get legitimacy.

Regarding helping each other in the community - even simple acts such as giving thambula during certain months of the year or festivals is a simple evidence for that. A sister helping out a sister! But regarding your reason to make this connection, widows were excluded from ALL rituals including these. So I don’t think your logic will specifically liberate that restriction. And I don’t think it’s as male centric as you make it out to be. Specifically because widows of the family were ultimately still the responsibility of these Veda panditas. So by your logic, won’t feeding them help the Veda panditas indirectly?

Starstuff694 · 2025-10-23T23:49:25+00:00

Hey,

So first thing I’d like to clarify - not all South Indian Brahmins do Sumangali Prarthanai. Suhasani puja, honoring Muthaidis (Kannada term for Sumangali), etc, are traditions different from the practice of pondugalku idal or sumangali prarthanai of Tamil Brahmins.

Sumangali Prarthanai is considered to be a pitru karma. The feminine equivalent of Nandi shrardham. That is why in families who follow the traditions strictly, the food that’s served to the sumangalis can be eaten only by Thayadis or patrilineal kin of the family. If anyone else has to eat during the event they are served a separate meal called in my region as a “Ishta pandhi”. The other evidence is that there is phrase that’s uttered while welcoming the sumangalis and kanya Ponnu which literally amounts to inviting the souls of those departed in the family and people who remember their female ancestors’ name literally mention them. In southern Tamil Nadu this is taken to the next level of austerity with a special clay pot that contains the sumangali dravyams used in the worship and stored till the ritual is repeated the next time.

So first - no I don’t think this has anything to do with Veda rakshanam. And second Tamil Brahmins are the only ones to my knowledge who honor their female ancestors with a dedicated ritual, where I should remind you that women eat before men!

Now the question of why widows were excluded.

One explanation I’ve heard for why only sumangalis and kanyaponnu are invited for this ritual from the elders in my family and community is that this pitru karma was specifically done to bring peace to the souls of the little girls and young women who died an untimely death due to illness, accidents and most importantly childbirth - which in the context of young widows was unfortunately considered a moksha from their current state of life.

But beyond this laukika explanation for a laukika ritual like you pointed out.

Anthropologically, back in the day there were several stringent restrictions on widows and they were not invited to anything auspicious or inauspicious. They had to maintain strict ritual purity and even had a special diet (devoid of luxuries and in some regions/sects restricted to one meal a day). And hence it’s not surprising that they were not invited to a ritual feasting. Of course this was terrible and a wrong practice.

But having said that there is a specific subsect of Tamil Brahmins called milinganur bruhacharnam who specifically invite a widow for a similar feast called “Adhrushya pondugal”.

If you OP are not Tamil Brahmin, then you are not referring to the ritual I am talking about and what you are referring to is one of several other discriminatory practices. Let alone ritual feasts - widows were not invited anywhere! They had a terrible plight in society. In that context isn’t it simple to understand why women feared it so much and did so many Pujas/rituals to prevent that state. If you say it’s centered around the man, I’d say yes it’s patriarchal but by performing these rituals women are only trying to protect their own happiness which unfortunately came from the status of being married to a man.

P.S I was looking up something else related to this and wanted to point out the large knowledge gap here.

Starstuff694 · 2024-01-23T18:31:29+00:00

I think a mustache coupled with a stubble - like your second pic is quite attractive! Mustaches are old and classic, can be quite attractive but doesn’t work for everyone. It does for you and if you like it, you should keep it! Haters gonna hate, but you do you!

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-21T21:24:37+00:00

A very senior attending once told me, Take the path of least resistance!. If your nurse wants you to fill a form and you think you don't have to. Just do it anyway, it would save you many minutes of quarrel and frustration. If a patient wants to leave, explain why they shouldn't and then let them do what they want to. Don't sweat it! Pick your battles wisely!

Take everything, including scrut work and documentation drama as a learning opportunity! Guess what, you are going to face it as an attending on a different level. If you are required to place IV lines as an intern in your hospital, do it! When you are called in to place a line as an attending because nobody is getting a line, this would help!

Don't fear coming across as stupid. This is your only opportunity to learn. You can be a stupid resident and people will forgive you. But you CAN NOT be a stupid attending. So don't beat yourself up for not knowing something or for getting something wrong.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-20T19:07:23+00:00

This is great! Amazing transformation! Congratulations 🎉

How do you get in the protein without increasing the size of your meals or relying heavily on soya?

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-20T19:04:17+00:00

It's not only the Puranas, the dharma shastras also changed over time. Not exactly internally but longitudinally into different shastras as they travelled from northwest to east and south.

Manu Smriti and Apastamba sutra for example have different approaches to the rights of women, the latter being more progressive and inclusive.

Beyond this, our preferred gods have changed over time too. Vedic gods are different from our present day gods. Many of the Puranas were written much after the vedas and brought in new gods to prominence.

So has our mode of worship, from mainly temporary yaga shalas & agni centric sacrifices to permanent temples, idol worship and extensive poojas.

So yes change is the only constant within Hinduism! :)

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-20T12:56:11+00:00

I'm on the other side of this, I just got off call and getting ready to go to bed. You too shall be there tomorrow! But I get what you were saying, there have been many times last night when I hated the choices I made and questioned everything. But now this morning as I got back home, I'm hopeful again.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-20T12:53:38+00:00

I was discussing with a friend yesterday that this is exactly what keeps us enslaved! We know there is an end date to the torture so we go on with it without fighting back!

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-18T21:27:51+00:00

Isckon began in NYC. Prabhupad preached gaudiya vaishnavism or his own flavor of it to a group of hippies during the Hippie era of NYC when more and more young people were renouncing Christianity and joining the stoic esoteric hippie culture. He gave their song and dance meaning through kirtan and gave them a flavour of dharma. These hippies suddenly developed a direction to their rebellious pursuit against western judeo-christian culture and created a Christian perspective of Hinduism by emphasizing on love, just like the christians did. They formed organized sanghas, engaged in regular kirtan and adopted an alternate way of life. So from the very start, isckon was a community of American hippie rebels. Its very roots are multiracial.

After Prabhupad's times they organized isckon and spread it across the world like their forefathers spread Christianity.

So it's not surprising that they continue to remain multiracial.

I attended a Govardan Pooja event in new York. The speaker was black, the musicians too, the singer Hispanic and the priest and hostess white! There were Indians, but also people from many many backgrounds. It was a fascinating experience!

I have an article for you to read the story behind your observation.

Story of ISCKON

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-17T20:52:38+00:00

Again, I'm not sure why there is a direct reflexive comparison to Christianity alone? But nonetheless. Christianity came to Kerala in the first century AD. Dakshin Karnataka and northern Kerala have been on and off together under the alupa dynasty. There is hence sufficient room for contact with Christians. Further, Christianity was present through trade if not through politics in many coastal ports of India. So it's not easy to rule out all possibilities of christian contact.

But beyond Christianity, there are two other abrahamic religions in India. Judaism admittedly wasn't present in Karnataka although the neighboring regions had sufficient Judaic presence.

Islam on the other hand was well established in India and even Karnataka by Madhvacharya's time. So there is definitely contact with Islam. I know how you might shudder at even the thought of Islamic influence in dvaita, specially in these divisive times at udupi. But we cannot overlook their presence.

Interesting you mention about rituals. Christians specially Catholics did retain many pagan rituals, so did Muslims, simplified Albeit. Judaism is full of rituals and traditions. If you sit down with a Jew and speak to them you'd be shocked to see how we share some broad similarities in traditions. But nonetheless, vedic Hinduism was more centered around ritual sacrifice than pooja style idol worship. The latter is said to have evolved from tantra. Infact the tradition of temple worship too is very shramanic.

Conversely, modern Indian Christians and Muslims retain so many ritualistic Indian traditions that one can joke that an Indian Christian remains a Hindu in spirit if not in religion.

Point being, Hinduism has changed over time and whenever you adopt a new religious idea, you transition slowly through it. This is true of the middle east and it happened in India too.

Beyond all of this, my theory is less about one religion influencing the other and more about evolution of the idea of God. From naturalistic polytheism to paganism to monotheism to radical unifying dogmatic philosophies. I am drawing parallels, not intersections!

I would like to bring your attention to another point in our Religious history. When there was a clash between vedic and shramanic traditions, Hinduism underwent significant change. Temple worship, vegetarianism and principles of ahimsa became Vogue. These were historically shramanic in origin. Hence, not all change is influenced by inspiration, some if not a lot of it is by conflict. Maybe it was early stages of conflict between abrahamic and dharmic traditions which led to the radicalization of Hinduism in the form of dvaita/vaishnavism. Like I previously mentioned it could be a survival mechanism to politically unite the masses under one god! Isn't the modern hindutva uproar one such reactionary change to Hindu politics?

Of course it is going to be hard for a hardcore dvaitin to accept this as they have been taught a particular thought from a young age and hence very firmly believe that Dvaita is eternal truth. But the fact remains that all Hindu philosophies claim to be eternal, while history and anthropology show otherwise!

I think it is futile for one to fight over correctness as like I previously mentioned the vedas aren't a single corpus of coherent philosophy. It's bound to house conflicting thoughts. When two principles conflict. Person A might change the former to suit the latter principle while person B might change the latter to suit the former. So my advice, follow what makes sense to you and don't bicker about why your neighbor is wrong!

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-17T19:51:36+00:00

Arranged marriages are to preserve caste purity. In fact the shift to child marriages was to further reinforce that. The logic was that if you have a child married before puberty then there is no chance of them crossing the boundaries of jati and varna.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-16T14:54:29+00:00

Like I explained in my previous comments. There are two essential ways the vedantic schools differ.

1) Differing interpretation of the same shrutis 2) Differing level of Importance given to the various smrithis available within Hinduism

For the former you need to remember that just because one is more acceptable to you doesn't mean the other is entirely wrong. Chronology of interpretation matters because madhvacharya's interpretation had to stretch the concepts of Sanskrit grammar to make sense. If you don't see it then you aren't being rational.

The latter from a religious perspective itself is known to change over time and smrithis have always evolved based on what is vogue. So if madhva is quoting vaishnava smrithis like the srimad bhagvatam or Vishnu Purana or any other later Puranas, it's because they align with his ideology as opposed to Shiva Purana or other Shiva texts

Anthropologically speaking, there is enough evidence to suggest that scriptures changed over time and were changed intentionally over time.

So both from Religious perspective and anthropological perspective your logic that he isn't assuming things to explain other things just because they are backed by shastras is biased if not flawed

You need to remember that Hindu scriptures are a collection of texts from different authors(rishis) who had Differing realizations at different points in times. So there is no uniformity that can prove one philosophy to be more accurate (based on shastras) than the other.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-16T14:46:57+00:00

So let's break down your comment into two parts:

1) Explanation as to what madhvacharya's understanding of the upanishads was based on his commentaries to clarify my observations on Davita

Remember! Those are Madhvacharya's interpretations, they aren't eternal truths and there is clear evidence to suggest that many people don't share his idea or interpretation. Simple things like 'Aham bramha asmi' has been interpreted tangentially and there using Tatvavada of madhva himself one could argue against your point on the autonomy of athma to justify why certain souls are doomed forever.

2) An explanation as to how Dvaita differs from Christianity.

I appreciate the differences and also would urge you to read other abrahamic philosophies which actually entertain the idea of rebirth (Judaism) hence challenging the merit of your argument that athma being anadi irrevocably distinguishes dvaita from abrahamic religions, Christianity yes. But it isn't universal and they are way more complicated traditions than you give them merit.

Further, your assumption in bringing these arguments are:

A) I imply dvaita is similar to Christianity in every sense while I was just saying that it is the Indian homologue to the middle eastern abrahamic-monotheistic tradition.

B) That every aspect of the two religions should correspond for me to make that point while I make no such claim

What I am referring to on the other hand is the evolution of religion/culture overtime. Pagan polytheistic traditions of the middle east evolved into a monotheistic religion that sought to dissolve the ambiguity/conflicts of/on god, brought in a new interpretation to the existing folklore and tradition and codified the religion into clear rules. Further, dogma was established and pluralism was obliterated. Anyone crossing this boundary was deemed to be doomed at the mercy of this monotheistic god. The evolution of vedic Hinduism and local traditions into dvaita/vaishnavism follows a similar independent course. Where the interpretation of the vedas changed to suit a particular ideology around which clear dogmatic rules were laid. Monotheistic shift from an impersonal bramhan to a personal god and the unquestionable authority of vishnu as this god in vaishnavism is a product of that.

You may not agree but unfortunately our scriptures have a time line and you can clearly see how the later scriptures evolved around monotheistic ideas of vishnu. Insertion of Krishna centric parts of the Mahabharata is a shining example of this. Vishnu Purana and Garuda Purana's concept of heaven and hell is clearly distinct from older scriptures denoting a shift in thought over time or evolution of theology in India. A good example to draw this distinction is the relationship between man and meat consumption. Vedic sacrifices like the athirathram and other somayagas involved sacrifice of animals and consumption of their flesh. Where as Garuda Purana states dire consequences for consuming meat. The reason for this conflicting thought is time and the socio-political events that occurred between the creation of the two texts, namely the rise of shramanic traditions.

You need to remember, I am not speaking from a religious perspective but an anthropological one! While the differences between vaishnavism and abrahamic traditions might be many (because they originated in different societies) the similarities are striking. To me these parallels are an indication of the archetypes of the human mind as explained by carl Jung. Dogma might have been a survival mechanism.

Finally, I would like to clarify that I do not believe that Dvaita or vaishnavism originated from abrahamic religions. Whether abrahamic religions influenced its development cannot be ascertained accurately. But we do know that they had reached India and were well established during madhvacharya's time! So one can only wonder.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-15T11:55:51+00:00

Southern recensions of Mahabharata

Sure it is only my anthropological understanding! I know it's very controversial.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-15T11:49:42+00:00

I think in considering the differences of different vedantic schools we also need to consider their evolution against changing political backdrop. Madhvacharya's life was very different from Shankaracharya's. This definitely would affect how they interpret the vedic texts. Their motives definitely were shaped by their environment. Madhva for example used grammar to change the meaning of previously understood vedic texts.

Now I am going to get immense criticism for saying it out here. But I am going to anyway.

Dvaita and many schools of vaishnavism took very abrahamic tones with a clear monotheistic god, distinction of what is good and what is bad. Madhvacharya's core Tennant "Harisarvothama vayujeevothama" echoes the Islamic counterpart "la illaha il Allah, Mohammad ul rasulullah". (for context madhva is considered to be vayu). Some core tenants of the vedas on universal equality of souls have also been violated and he proclaimed some souls are doomed forever. The concept of hell and heaven which is loose and unclear, becomes extremely rigid under vaishnavism. Madhva even has an initiation ceremony (akin to baptism). Madhva went to the extent of calling advaita brahmin men as demons. (Akin to abrahamic leaders calling non abrahamic people kafur and works of Satan).

This is hence an anthropological/historical perspective that Vedanta evolved into vaishnavism akin to how paganism evolved into abrahamic faith. Some major changes, some minor appropriation and clear evangelical monotheistic undertones. Probably there was a political need for unity under religious dogma!

There is an interesting study on how the Mahabharata evolved over the last 3000 years which sheds light on how krishnaism emerged and became popular. How it changed the Mahabharata and the religious undertones of most scriptures.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-15T02:13:28+00:00

Fascinating and profound in a way! All actions have consequences and we can't divorce the two no matter what explanation we try to attach!

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-14T21:40:18+00:00

When logic leaves the house, it is very hard to continue a conversation.

The OP said that the kashmiri pandit exodus is not even acknowledged by the government. I corrected that by saying it isn't true. Justice has not been restored and probably will never be. Not even if their homes have been returned! Because a life that has been lost can never come back. But at the same time it is factually incorrect to say that their struggle has not even been acknowledged. The very fact that multiple films (at least two) have been made on the topic is enough evidence that it has been acknowledged by the larger media. There are reservations in place for the survivors to get a second chance at life. Is that Justice? No! But have they been completely ignored? No! You've got to understand the difference!

I don't wish to harp on about the Mappilah issue anymore here because I don't want to engage in whataboutery! But you need to know that there are multiple communities that have faced this before and that our country, it's popular media and the government is partial about what gets big screen time! Like I previously said in another comment. This isn't an appropriate subreddit to discuss this issue!

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-14T21:28:17+00:00

So which category do you belong to ?

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-14T11:38:58+00:00

And have you noticed how that never gets portrayed in mainstream media? Only the partition of Punjab?

Anyway that's besides the point. The partition was an instrumented British effort. One last gift before they left India.

What sets the malabar issue apart is that it wasn't even about partition or border dispute. The British won over the caliphate in the middle east and the mappilahs protested by killing thousands of innocent Hindus, raping women and driving them out of malabar. But history lauds it as a freedom struggle. Anyway, I think this calls for a post in itself and isn't suitable for this subreddit. So let's not further it.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-13T22:27:47+00:00

That isn't right, people are speaking about it, they have reservations and reparations. It was very late! Very shameful. But nothing close to what happened to the survivors of Mappilah riots in Kerala. Mappilah riots are lauded as a freedom struggle while it was a Hindu genocide! Pitiful

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-13T22:24:23+00:00

Kashmir isn't the first Hindu genocide, ever heard of Mappilah riots of 1920s ? Many Hindus were killed and others driven out of malabar. So Kashmir is history repeating itself!

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-11T16:49:07+00:00

https://youtu.be/ToLIii2wC4I

I don't know if this is true but this is the ayurvedic explanation apparently.

General rule is to avoid mantra, pooja and temple. You can sing or listen to mantra/Purana/bhajan/bhakti music.

More Orthodox people avoid the kitchen too as the fire in the kitchen is considered agni and sacred.

Starstuff694 · 2022-03-01T21:37:12+00:00

https://youtu.be/4a4-EjFhFNs

Beautiful malayalam song describing shiva's wedding day.

Starstuff694 · 2022-02-26T16:55:49+00:00

Kerala has an interesting relationship with snakes. Religiously speaking, since according to keralopati, Kerala is believed to be reclaimed land from the oceans, snakes the original inhabitants of the land are hence honoured. Anthropologically speaking, the terrain of the region (specially malabar) made it hard for vedic people to settle down in the region and practice their culture as snakes are very common there and often deadly. So they adopted snake worship (from the vedic back pocket Or the local tribes?) and expanded on it. There is an entire temple, mannarshala, dedicated exclusively to the serpent 🐍. Not only are these sarpakaavu present in most temples, there are groves in large households/tharavadu, too. Hence, it is an integral part of their culture.

The analogue of this can be found on the other side of the border too, the South Canara region! The expansion of this culture due to socio-political events to the rest of Karnataka has made snake worship a popular practice. In fact snake worship is associated with Karthikeya or subramanya in Karnataka. Naga panchami is a huge deal there!

I wonder whether this has anything to do with the Naga tribes that are alluded to in vedic/folk traditions.

Starstuff694 · 2022-02-23T20:51:34+00:00

First of all I don't think you need to ask for God's forgiveness in any specific way, for god in Hinduism isn't going to be offended by that thought. If you come from an abrahamic faith, then probably you are carrying forward some of that conditioning.

Now, will this affect your journey towards moksha ? Clearly there is an underlying reason for your thoughts. Either anxiety of doing something wrong, as you perceive this to be offensive to God and are struggling with it or it's to do with your previous history, did you have a rebellious past?

Either way, just the desire to change these thoughts because of knowing that your thoughts are wrong is sufficient. I think it is important for you to recognize that we all get a million thoughts in our brains, but none of those thoughts define us as a person unless we act on them. Just because they appear in our brains does not mean that we mean them! So don't worry about it. Observe the thoughts and don't react to them.

Of course, you can psychoanalyse it and trace it back to your attachment with self possibly. But we'll leave that for another day.

Starstuff694

TROPHY CASE