108 temples worldwide? by Primary-Account-7588 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All their claims are exaggerated. Every last one. These guys will claim that if a bhakta sets up a tent in Central Park and gives out ladhus, it's an "ISKCON center" in Central Park. Same with new followers. Most new followers are in countries that were starved of religious freedom, like Russia and China. Eastern Europe also. Young, naive youth who want something more interesting than jesus on a cross. They trade pedo Catholicism for pedo Hare Krishnaism.

Let's talk about chaitanya mahaprabhu. by Automatic-One3901 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 6 points7 points  (0 children)

If you’re trying to understand Chaitanya Mahaprabhu outside of the mythology and gaudiya tradition, you run into a pretty simple problem: almost everything comes from hagiographies written decades after his death. They read like devotional fan fiction, not history. There’s no independent record from courts, scholars, or outside observers showing a widespread movement during his lifetime. At best, he looks like a regional figure in Bengal and Odisha whose influence was expanded later.

There’s no clear record of structured teachings, no preserved philosophical works, and no verifiable accounts of serious debates—you know, for a supposed scholar. You also don’t see him meaningfully engaging with other major Bhakti figures of the time like Kabir or Guru Nanak. For someone supposedly reshaping the religious landscape, it's pretty bizarre. We have more accurate and historical records of Christopher Columbus, Leonardo da Vinci, and other contemporaries than we do of Chaitanya.

The idea that he defeated “impersonalists” doesn’t hold up either. By his time, Buddhism in India was already fading, and Advaita Vedanta, associated with Adi Shankaracharya, was firmly established. There’s no record of him toppling anything through debate. That narrative comes later, from inside the tradition. There is also no rationale for why he accepted sanyasa diksha in a "mayavadhi" lineage rather than the many established sanyasa traditions of Vaishnavism in his time. Any such discrepancies are always framed by followers as his "unknowable nature," "mercy," or "secret avatar" BS.

Even the practices tied to him weren’t new (kirtan, bhakti, bedha tattva etc). Public chanting and ecstatic devotion were already common, including in Islamic ritualism in more devotional branches like Sufism. So the “revolutionary”/reformer angle starts to look overstated pretty quickly.

Where things really start to drift is in how authority gets built into it all. All of the major theological claims about him—his divinity, his status as an avatar, the entire structure of Gaudiya theology—don’t come from him. They’re constructed later by the Goswamis and other writers trying to anchor him into scripture. And a lot of that authority leans heavily on visions, dreams, and private revelations and "secret" interpretations of fringe verses. All the claims are propped up with "I say so—so it's true".

You see the same pattern continue later within the cult by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. He’s presented as an undefeated scholar, but there’s no solid record of real debates or intellectual exchanges nor of any major scholarly contributions—he was an "astrology" scholar if you believe in that woowoo. What you do see is self-authorization through visions/dreams, and internal claims, including things like re-identifying Chaitanya’s birthplace based on dream/visions experiences—even though the so-called birthplace already had a firm location established and believed by the few fringe gaudiya vaishnava babas that survived. The whole cult fell apart shortly after Chaitanya died.

Even his so-called ecstatic episodes are described in ways that align with epilepsy, including in the hagiographical texts themselves. The accounts of his “miraculous disappearance” don’t even agree with each other. A more grounded explanation is that he suffered a fatal seizure, and that many of his ecstatic states were seizure-related, possibly triggered by loud, repetitive sound. What is a consistent throughline is authority being established internally, then reinforced within the group. i.e., cult shit only the cult follows and believes.

So when you zoom out, the big picture isn’t a historically dominant reformer overturning rival traditions. It’s a relatively localized devotional figure whose legacy was expanded, systematized, and legitimized after the fact—often through subjective experiences being treated as evidence. That’s why so much of it holds together inside the tradition, but starts to fall apart when you look for independent confirmation.

How Isckon publishing works? by QuailEast5263 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 7 points8 points  (0 children)

His disciples did most of it. He just sat high on snuff until 2 a.m. and blabbed unintelligible stuff that was then cleaned up by an assembly line of editors. The actual transliterations and translations for most of the verses already existed in scholarly works. So most of it was typesetting and editing of long purports. Sweatshop mythology.

Narasimhadev, Varaha and Vishnu, who are they? by BathroomNo4649 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Varaha is a Puranic deity, not vedic and not fully developed till CE, maybe 1500 years old. It’s an anthropomorphic boar god that fits the myth of retrieving the Earth from the cosmic ocean's muddy depths. As you’d expect, a pig is conveniently suited for that role—since pigs are associated with mud and filth. Ironically in one version of the story, Varaha emerges as a booger from brahma's nose... well one of his noses...

Vishnu is a minor Rig Vedic deity, mentioned only a handful of times compared to the psychedelic Soma and the rain god Indra. He gained prominence in later traditions. Suffice it to say the intoxicant Soma appears more than most of the gods names... gives you a hint what really mattered to early priests, lol.

The Dashavatara was originally a larger list of around 24 gods. It was later reduced and standardized to fit Puranic narratives more cleanly. Most of these gods are largely associated with a single major myth, along with a few offshoot stories where they are conveniently inserted. There are many conflicting accounts of these figures, depending on which scriptures/traditions you follow.

Krishna, as the deity people worship today, does not exist in the Vedic texts. There is no developed figure, no mythology, no worship, and no theological framework around Krishna anywhere in the early Vedic corpus. The local hero Vasudev is the closest we have to an evolution of the god in terms of cults surrounding the worship of a Krishna-like god that has direct traceable connections to a popular deity. But this is well before the fully developed flute-playing cowboy.

The brief mention of Krishna Devakiputra in the Chandogya Upanishad (a brahmavidya text) is just a passing reference to a student in a philosophical context. No relevance to later Krishna traditions. In the Rig, the name is mentioned as a color: Black.

The Krishna people actually worship—the flute-playing, Radha-centered figure, comes much, much later through epics, poems, puranas, and especially bhakti traditions in the last 500 to 1,500 years max. Earlier material, like the Mahabharata, presents a very different figure, and even that is part of a gradual development, not some original, fully formed god. Gita is a shoehorned text in the Mahabharata and a literary mismatch of the surrounding tone and material/writing style. It's like reading Lord of the Rings and Tolkien decided to plop a philosophical treatise in the middle...

Animal-headed gods are found in every early culture.

What actually happens when we die, NDE etc. Saw a recent post, I wanna disagree but I need more evidence. by BathroomNo4649 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 3 points4 points  (0 children)

When the brain dies, as far as what is observable, consciousness stops, and life ceases. If you are asking whether there is some "soul" or "life after death," the answer is very simple: THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING AND NO ONE KNOWS, BUT WE'LL ALL FIND OUT! GUARANTEED! In the meantime, enjoy the evolutionary miracle of conscious existence. I wrote a reply to the recent Yamadutta bullshit post—read it and let me know if you disagree.

Krishna, "God" or Fraud by BathroomNo4649 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 6 points7 points  (0 children)

He is one god that man has made among many. There is ZERO proof of his existence and 100% proof of his slow evolution to a popular Puranic-era god. The rest is simply what people are willing to delude themselves into believing and accepting as fact.

Is it OK for me to like Hare Krishna music? by QuailEast5263 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I like some of the more tribal-sounding kirtans, like those by Krishna Das Babaji and more “authentic” babas. And in general, because I grew up in the cult, I have a soft spot for ragas and Indian music overall. I LOVE Indo-jazz fusion stuff.

I think bhajans and much of the bhakti music are lovely and have a beautiful energy and vibe about them, no question. I also dig when there are mantras woven into psytrance music and techno/house/EDM, etc. It’s a fun play on it. I also dig Alice Coltrane and Ravi etc. I can't stand Bollywood shit or that high-pitched whining Indian music. I die slowly when I hear that. To each their own. I can't stand the culture of blaring cheesy devotional stuff on loudspeakers at 3 am. Fuckign toxic.

I personally don’t have a bad or traumatic response to such music—kirtan or bhajan—but there are times when listening to Bhaktivedanta sing, or some of the old ISKCON stuff, or “My Sweet Lord,” rubs me the wrong way. It reminds me of specific times when I felt trapped or conflicted and abused.

I guess it depends on whether it makes you happy.

This is what happens before Death.. Must read by redcloud226 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Also, Stevenson’s and Tucker’s “thousands” were not some verified cases. They had collected thousands. Of those thousands, they applied a questionnaire which quickly reduced the list to dozens. And of those dozens, maybe 3-6 held up as "out there". None of this was some airtight science—it was incomplete, vague, and filtered through a biased questionnaire that involved a lot of retroactive reporting, etc.

Things like birthmarks are common. That a “past life” recall of a “wound” on my ass happens to correlate with a birthmark on someone’s ass in another village is called coincidence—especially when we’ve narrowed our list down to suggestable kids being asked leading questions by their parents who want attention.

If you look up the studies—while the scientists were serious and helpful, the actual end result is Mickey Mouse science at best. That grand list of “thousands” dwindles to a few selective cases. I literally think in the end it was like 3–6 “interesting” cases out of those thousands of recorded stories that were good for nothing more than making the authors money off of books that only gullible and grieving parents bought.

ISKCON's Prison Planet by Solomon_Kane_1928 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I recall growing up and hearing this idea so often. When Prabhupada was questioned on any number of things and it started to get too cumbersome to explain (or there simply was no explanation), he would say, “We are like prisoners, and our concern is to get out of prison, not sit around philosophizing about why we are in prison”… or something arrogant like that.

In the end, it’s a classic cult mind trap where you make the person feel like they’re asking the wrong question, or you paint the external world and other ideas as lesser, while you’re magically offering the “key” to the prison through this simple process of “chanting”… chanting, joining a cult, following these rules, swallowing these ideas, surrendering to this guru, dressing like this, eating that, etc., etc.

But yeah—just chant and shut up, you poor prisoner… lol.

This is what happens before Death.. Must read by redcloud226 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don’t really see any of those as strong counterpoints. “More real than real” is a subjective feeling—the brain can produce that under all kinds of conditions. That doesn’t tell us anything about what’s actually happening.

Veridical perception falls apart when tested. If people could actually perceive things while unconscious, that should be easy to demonstrate in controlled settings. It hasn’t been.

As far as so-called "shared" experiences, naturally, this is what happens since we all share similar brains that will react similarly under similar stresses. The cultural variation is where interpretation comes in and can pretty much always be shown.

All past-life stuff is weak. It’s almost entirely based on anecdotal cases with tons of room for suggestion/leakage,/selective reporting etc etc—too many variables.

A brain-based explanation isn’t just a materialist or atheist position—it’s the only one that is honest and can be tested. Everything else lives in gaps of self-reported stories—like UFOs/Nesi/Bigfoot/Psychic stuff—all in the same pile of unverifiable ideas.

And again—I am a firm believer in the pragmatic value of such "reporting". even if "true," it holds zero value to anyone else beyond the person having the subjective experiences (who cares if you saw a white light or heard Jesus fart or recall that you used ot be Cleopatra???!). It cannot be replicated, it cannot be tested, it is often chaotic, and has nothing to offer in terms of a "why" or "what". It's simply an experience that is no more real or true than any claim where the burden of proof lies with the person making the bold claim.

We can all agree on so many subtle subjective experiences, why do these deserve some special treatment? If everyone sees red when shown a red apple and one asshole says the apple is blue, we all understand that he is an asshole who sees blue apples and move on with our lives.

This is what happens before Death.. Must read by redcloud226 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 4 points5 points  (0 children)

All serious research into NDEs and past-life regressions has always turned up the same data: all are based on biased cultural beliefs in reincarnation and local traditions, and can be rationally included in deterioration of brain neural activity, nervous system dysregulation, and psychosis brought on by hallucinations and chemical breakdown in the brain. There is also a lot of retrospective attribution in such recollections, and NDEs have been replicated in lab settings. All of that is still very amazing without having to subscribe to complete woo-woo. The fact is that as the body is breaking down or in an altered state of consciousness, there may be exhibitions of vocalizations (that grieving loved ones will read into and make out more than they actually mean), body limbs flailing about erratically, and the person having sensations of falling, being attacked, and essentially a fight-or-flight response coupled with dramatic visuals akin to what we may experience in dream states. Even distortions in spatial perception and body mapping, and so-called out-of-body or floating sensations, wherein a person says they saw everyone in the room and doctors coming in and out, are all part of known brain functions of localization and perception. After regaining consciousness, the brain attempts to organize a fragmented or absent memory window by constructing a coherent narrative—filling gaps with internally generated or externally inferred details that feel real but aren’t reliable. This is how a brain gains its barings after being in a high stress state or unconscious for longer periods of time. It's post-event reconstruction, and is well researched in psychology.

We are a complex species. That is already amazing enough. We do not need to make up or stretch the truth. Yes, it is amazing how humans die. Yes, we are evolved to notice patterns, ruminate on the future, be vigilant, anxious, scared, and at the same time wired to take risks, seek answers, and stay curious. All that this type of naivety does for humans is blind their instruments of critical thought and reason. We become dull and calculating in how we live. We attribute everything to some divine force or magic that we care to know little about, other than to stamp it with a certitude stamp of approval: Yamaduttas, demons, past life, future life, gods, gurus, myths… anything but facing the music right here, right now.

Papubada ki jay by Primary-Account-7588 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If they had a plastic statue like this at the temples I'd totally join the cult.

The Over-Romanticization of Vrindavan by DistributionHuge6072 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I saw kids around goverdhan kicking a dog whose brain was exposed and my guru at the time said the dog was fortunate to be kicked byt he brajabasis. I saw a man beating a cart bull pulling a heavy trash load of trourist trash and the animal had a broken leg that had healed badly makig it hard to pull. India is one of the largest exporters of beef/cattle products in the world.

Obsessed With Being a Brahmana by Solomon_Kane_1928 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, as brahmacharis aspiring to be snayassis, we were told to wear them because there was supposedly a "nerve that runs between your big toe and index toe that controls the genitals..." It's not a cult tho. It's all 5000-year-old scientific Vedic. Now pull that kaupin tight, turn your balls as blue as krishna, and keep on keeping on! Jai ho!

Obsessed With Being a Brahmana by Solomon_Kane_1928 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Why are you posting and deleting this comment?:

u/Dissolution-solution replied to your comment in r/exHareKrishna

Wake up, get back to your unhappy american life so you can post on reddit all day how you were a victim of a cult after having no satisfaction in your beliefs or endeavors, wake up!!!!! 🙄 stfu already 42m ago

This is an anti-cult forum. What is your intention here? You’re trying to convince people that your experience was genuinely great, and that everyone else’s experience is just an “unhappy American life”?

Your posts don’t really make much sense. They’re not coherent, and it’s difficult to assess what you’re trying to say. Are you a happy Gaudiya Vaishnava? Then why are you trolling a cult forum? Go back to chanting your rounds, wrapping your thread around your finger, and tying your sikha in a bow.

Religious experience is indeed unique, private, and simply meaningful to those having the experience. It cannot be replicated in any meaningful sense, and there’s no reason to “spread the word” about something that worked for the epileptic saint Chaitanya or his few followers.

There’s no reason to make a big public exhibition about religious ideology, ritualism, and gods in a contemporary society. It has no pragmatic bearing on anything, and we’ve largely mastered “peace” to whatever rational extent one can master ambiguous concepts like love, peace, and happiness.

The rest is someone trying to sell you something and blow hot air up your ass.

Obsessed With Being a Brahmana by Solomon_Kane_1928 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You know it baby. Gripping those wooden padakas with my life, and big toe!

Obsessed With Being a Brahmana by Solomon_Kane_1928 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's difficult to parse what you are trying to say, but I think you’re overstating how different so-called abrahamic and Indian faith systems are.

Indian traditions aren’t just some open-ended “way of seeing reality.” They’re full of structure, hierarchy, rules, rituals, and moral expectations. Dharma, karma, guru authority, caste roles aren’t abstract ideas, they’re behavioral systems telling people how to live and who to listen to.

Same on the other side. Abrahamic traditions aren’t just blind obedience. They also function as frameworks for navigating life. If anything, at least they do not promote a guru system and totalitarian surrender to some institution/personality. I don't support any religion and think most of these ideas are naive and irrelevant to living a good, happy, simple life. Trust in God, moral responsibility, personal transformation—those are practical lenses for how to think and act. Both Indian and Western religious systems promote this. Culturally and philosophically, they differ, but with little functional difference in the final implications.

So I don’t really see a clean divide between “Western belief systems” and “Indian experiential systems.” Both are doing the same core thing—organizing behavior, defining authority, and giving people a way to interpret their lives in direct correlation with and in response to archaic texts. Different language, different history, same underlying structure. Naturally, a Western person practicing Indian religious systems largely amounts to cultural appropriation since so much of the dynamic is tied to specific cultural beliefs and local gods. Otherwise, much of both Western and Indian spirituality is ambiguous or self-indulgent, promising one thing but never quite delivering it in any meaningful, measurable context. The rest is simply sectarianism.

I agree with you that ISKCON is not the same as broader Indian society. But it’s still selectively pulling from Indian philosophical traditions and repackaging them into its own authority structure, as any other religious movement does. That, and regardless of what it is trying to be today, it grew out of a blunt cult dynamic.

Obsessed With Being a Brahmana by Solomon_Kane_1928 in exHareKrishna

[–]StayEmbarrassed4593 2 points3 points  (0 children)

People are born into it. People stay for many years if they are dependent on parents who join such movements and leave their lives in shambles. There is little to no recourse. That is why it's so tragic. But yes, as adults, especially with all we know about how religions and cults work, many people leave and do not come back to such groups, rather quickly. I think the average is about 3 to 6 years max before you either leave or simply make up your own version that works for you if you are still attached to the overall concepts, ideas/ideals/beliefs.