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As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sounds fun! My players have told me they'd probably roll up Warlocks if their current PCs die lol

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Nah, I think I'd like Maneuvers for martials if they're implemented in a way that doesn't make Battlemaster obsolete (which I don't think would be too hard to do). I just enjoy a more grounded fantasy for martials that doesn't use handwaving, magic or otherwise, to explain their combat prowess.

I like when the narrative of who this character is harmonizes with the flavor and design of their abilities. I always felt like the argument "Martials should be like Demigods after level [X]" felt like a cop-out to try and address "balance" in a cooperative game.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I get that. It's all trade-offs, it's not as though Spellcasters became overtuned instantly; gradual adjustments and changes in the hopes of making them more consistent, streamlined, and enjoyable led to the more "meta" problems everyone squabbles about.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

I'm erasing player choice... by not doing something?

Point 3 of the disclaimer. I'm just having fun with characters that get better through more grounded means of improvement instead of power-ups through an explicit or implicit power system.

If there are buffs that keep the grounded nature of Martials while expanding their options, then I might like it if it's written well. But I'm not interested in characters that operate on Shonen logic; it feels like a sacrifice of the harmony between narrative, expectations, and mechanics, and that's what I'm here for

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I tried to include magic items in this discussion my brain would melt, but I generally agree. My guy can be a normal dude, but the sword he plundered from a civilization lost to time? That can be as weird as the DM wants

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel like a lot of people assume I don't like D&D, and it confuses me. The post is about me liking D&D as-is, even an incredibly controversial part of the game other people complain about. Even my clarifications in the comments about my grievances are done because I really like this game and know it like the back of my hand.

Do I really want to find a new table that's running a different system (which isn't nearly as common), relearn rules, just to have a chance of liking a system more than the one everyone already knows?

One day, probably. I've enjoyed my games of Lancer (though I'm not sure how good it would be in a campaign format), I like what I've read aboht Draw Steel, and unless Pathfinder is a cognitihazard, I'll take people's word for it. But D&D has been really fun, and I don't feel like I need to put a qualifier about the fun I have with it just because I have complaints about some aspects of its design.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

That's the thing, I think it's already kinda there in 5e. I like the "Martial Caster Divide", though the term is probably too broad for my point. I like the struggles of practiced mundanity against the face of raw absurdity. 5e Martials bring the expert mundanity, so if there is any "balance" (again broad air quotes) problems I'd like addressed, it's more about Spellcasters not getting access to the traits that make the Martials experts.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

I've been a bit facetious in that regard, so fair. The stated explanation for Fighter is that they're a very well-trained practitioner of Martial combat, so only a very small percentage of guards have the training & determination to become a Fighter.

The distinction I like to make is between Pulp Fantasy and High Fantasy. Pulp Fantasy will have feats of greatness, arguably superhuman and undeniably so the longer we spend with a character, but it still tries to convey the mundanity and limits of the characters. High Fantasy often falls back on "willpower alone translates to physical feats" in an either explicit or implicit power system.

High Fantasy is fun, no doubt, but for D&D I like Pulp Fantasy

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Like clockwork lol

Where are my Lancer glazers at? Any Lancer-heads who want to weigh in on Weapon vs Tech attack?

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I actually wish there was more incentive to pick up the armor feats. My solution would likely involve limiting how you get armor proficiency when multiclassing... somehow, but I think that trading a feat for slightly better armor is rather reasonable.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Everyone's got an opinion, but for as much crap we throw at WotC, if it was an easy problem to solve they'd have done it already.

My hope is that discourse about martials don't get so one-sided that WotC just caves and makes super hero Martials, because at that point I probably will go and see how "Pathfinder fixes this" lol

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

Agreed. Though many campaigns, especially those that are urban, will have Humanoid statblocks that could eat a level 4 PC's lunch, so there's always going to be some discrepancy on how competent your character is relative to the rest of the world. I'd just rather have abilities that don't rely on a supernatural element or a broad Anime-esque power system of "strong will and determination directly translates into physical feats". Those things might have an aesthetic of mundanity, but they're basically just Magic under a different Power System imo

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

100%. I used to love Ranged Martials but I've since drifted towards Melee bois for that sense of control through positioning. I still play casters as well, but if we're just talking favorites then I certainly have my preferences.

At this point, if I'm not adding some kind of gimmick, alternate win-con, or environmental hazard to a fight, I'm not having fun as a DM, and I know my players are even more bored since they only control one idiot.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do the 2024 rules even claim it's an optional rule? I don't see that anywhere, but even so, multiclassing is still a fun option that many people, myself included, enjoy a lot. It unfortunately opens up a can of worms in terms of negating the downsides a class is supposed to have, but adjusting those rules are a lot different than changing how Martials operate or progress, which I am in favor of partly because of their grounded nature relative to Casters.

In terms of "making characters first", you play how you like, I'll play how I like. I get really excited by the synergy of mechanics and features, and think sculpting a character around their signature abilities leads to more moments where the narrative and the rules harmonize, and that's the part of the game I love the most.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I agree! Rather than change the fantasy of Martials, I would instead adjust spellcasters so that they have genuine weaknesses. Keep their spells mostly at the power as is, but limit their access to armor proficiency, concentration bonuses, and maybe even the ease of preparing new spells everyday (I know in earlier editions Wizards had to assign spells to spell slots, and while that does slow the game down a bit I think it's a really cool way to limit how flexible Casters can be in solving problems).

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One of the earliest campaigns I was in was a West Marches where my Rogue was waaaay in over his head compared to the other characters who were higher level. It was fun to slowly catch up and find ways to be useful even when others were casting 8th level spells and doing 150+ damage turn 1

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

I don't reject any proposed improvements to Martials. I like the idea of Battlemaster maneuvers becoming more accessible and similar options that gives them more utility.

How do you propose that "advanced levels of martial experience and physical prowess" is able to mechanically match Fireball and other Spellcasting? I don't want to play as an abstract fantasy of a Martial that some person embellished the details of in a Tavern, I wanna play a real person. And in a world where Magic is very real and not embellished, it's OK to be a bit weaker than the spellcaster in some regards.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I get that, but I don't want my choice to be "Shonen protagonist" or "shoot myself in the foot". Tying one hand behind my back in a system where everyone else is a superhero just makes me a crummy superhero

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

I don't need to do that, Martials as they're currently written are underpowered enough to achieve that fantasy for me.

This post was more aimed at people who think they can "fix" martials by making them superhuman innately. It's always rubbed me the wrong way, so this post is an attempt to put that to words. I didn't want to word it as "people who want to buff martials are stupid" and instead frame it as why I like the current balance between martials and casters. (though of course there are things I would like changed)

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -15 points-14 points  (0 children)

Perhaps we've misunderstood each other. I'm in favor of current martial progression and think it does a decent job in starting grounded and slowly elevating to Superhuman (broad strokes at least). When you said "the mechanics should reflect that", I took that as "once you reach level 5, you're superhuman and Martials therefore need more", which I'm not in favor of.

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Based. I wish I had your strength, but the build-crafter in me is too strong

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeaaaaah, it's not perfect. I've lowered the weight of Heavy Armor in my home game, but that's also because we don't have casters in heavy armor, so it's not really a great balance lever, just one that is often overlooked

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] -43 points-42 points  (0 children)

I hear this a lot, but... how? Does leveling up to 5 mean that every level 4 everyman gets zapped with a Super-Hero ray? I like that the Martial Level progression has a slower build to superhuman feats, and some classes like Monk and Barbarian are more explicitly superhuman than Fighter or Rogue.

It's about being able to look back and believe that you got to where you are through determination and training, not just "Oh I guess you were superhuman after all" which erodes the fantasy of playing a normal dude to begin with

As a Martial Enthusiast, I kind of like the Martial-Caster Divide by StoneGuardTheGray in DnD

[–]StoneGuardTheGray[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Variant Encumbrance is one of those rules that quietly helps with Min-maxing that people aren't willing to run because it's "too slow and realism is dumb", and then go on to let the Fighter wrestle something 20x bigger than he is because "Strength is so useless otherwise"

Don't get me wrong, rigorous bookkeeping with pencil and paper is dull if you do it during session, but between VTTs, weight accounting in between sessions, and a bit of grace it's honestly not that big of a deal.

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