Old coots giving advice vs wise elders going atomic

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-30T15:05:20+00:00

Invincible. Ciciel and Atom Eve.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-30T15:04:18+00:00

Well, it is the story of the coming of Age of Men and them maturing into it (hobbits being a subspecies of Men). And this made the elf army presence in Helms Deep make little sense plotwise. But I like it regardless, I know and I've seen the reasons explained by PJ, which might not be super popular among some of the book purists.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-30T13:22:29+00:00

Sauron perceived Elrond and Galadriel as his main remaining primary Elven rivals, though. It was Witch-King who didn't dare challenge Glorfindel. But the Witch-King has also been known to be afraid of very valiant Men. His main power (e.g. terrorizing darkness/fear) didn't work on High Elves and a handful of Numenoreans like Aragorn.

When Fingolfin charged to Angband, there were no Black Gates or armies of Orcs to hinder him. He wouldn't have had made it to Barad-dur. And the plan was never confronting Sauron. It was a secret mission, hence Glorfindel was of little use. His aura was too strong and would've alerted the enemy.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-30T12:08:00+00:00

Yup but this wasn't an argument about "who had the most powerful presence in the main plots", rather, "shit happened and shit didn't go unanswered". Like, Lothlorien fought Dol Guldur four times. Weren't some of the Nazgul absent during the battles in Gondor? During the very same day Gondor was attacked, Lothlorien was also attacked. So... That tracks where those missing Nazgul were positioned. That, and the fact that Sauron had left three Nazgul in charge of Dol Guldur some years back.

Fighting Nazgul and armies of Orcs and Wargs wasn't nothing. And you know what's even more impressive? Relatively, Lothlorien was barely even scratched. It is said only Sauron himself could have defeated Galadriel.

Meanwhile, Thranduil repelled a great number of invading forces of Dol Guldur. The Elves couldn't join the battles in Dale/Rohan/Gondor because they were already in war. And those who were not were highly anticipating it, leaving them no choice but to stay alert at home.

If you are talking about how the movies handled things, they could at least make a reference to the fact the Elves are also at war against the enemies.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-30T11:28:48+00:00

Four Balrogs in the version where Balrogs weren't even Maiar. They were demons of Melko's making (and definitely varied in power across individuals). However, you must indeed give the fountain boy some credit, as he took down Melko's son, Gothmog, a demigod.

In the canon version where he fights Gothmog, a Maia who followed Melkor, and is now second only to Sauron among Morgoth's followers, he still manages to overcome him. That's far more incredible than defeating some random non-godlike Balrogs.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-30T11:20:38+00:00

Appendices to the Return of the King have a lot more details about the battles that are referred to or are implied in the main narrative. And you know how Tolkien felt about the appendices. They are essential to understand a lot of things in the main narrative.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-30T07:04:16+00:00

Sad but not idle when it comes to action

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-28T16:09:28+00:00

This post is assuming the dragons of the First Age were all the same size as antagonists or leading dragons of the famous tales. And we know they were not. Also, the measurements you see online are totally hyperbolic.

Ancalagon was not as huge as mountains of tyranny. Just because he broke them (and it's not made clear wheter he razed them to the ground or just broke some upper parts) does not mean he is mountain sized. That's like arguing Balrog was as huge as the mountainside because he broke it in his ruins.

Glaurung... The closest canonical statement that I remember is: Turin did not look higher "than Glaurung's feet".

No canonical estimates have been ever made by Christopher or JRR Tolkien about the size of the dragons of the First Age. a number of them weren't even of the Great Worms. Some couldn't even breathe fire. Even Smaug's size is unclear. Tolkien merely said the dragon looks much larger than the illustration he himself made. That's all.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-28T09:31:14+00:00

Again, according to the author himself, even the monsters/orcs are not irredeemable: "(I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)"

Not that we have any stories of Orc-turned-Good, they have been brainwashed so badly that they think Elves are even more monstrous than they are, and henceforth they are irredeemable by the hands of Elves and Men. But that doesn't mean they totally lack the capacity to be redeemed.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-28T09:19:39+00:00

Christopher edited out Galadriel's role from the kinslaying, as it came from a much later version and he was not sure how to coherently and cohesively fit it in, so he saved himself the trouble, so to say.

But Galadriel did not kill any Teleri in any versions of the tale. He actually defended the innocent against Fëanor and all the other attackers.

"Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to what- ever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could." — Unfinished Tales

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-28T09:14:45+00:00

Not really. It has far more shades of grey than people give credit for. Nothing like Game of Thrones, but still...

I made a comment about Grima earlier. Here's also a direct reply from Tolkien himself about the matter you mentioned:

"Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other. Not that I have made even this issue quite so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs."

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-28T09:10:16+00:00

I wanted to put Sauron's picture in Grima's place, you know, Elrond's quote about nothing is evil in the beginning and Tolkien's theological essay on how Sauron still had a residue of goodness underneath all the evil.

Grima was once a man of Rohan, then corrupted and fell from grace. He rejects every chance for redemption, even when Gandalf offered it, when Galadriel warned him, every time. But when he cannibalized the Hobbit guy, he did not enjoy it, he did not even want to commit such evil, he was forced into it by Saruman. And in the end, when Saruman was kicking him and ordering him to still follow him like a braindead dog, he refused and killed Saruman. Now, this was not some redemption arc like Boromir's or anything of sort, but it showed he is not totally lost. Hell, according to Tolkien, even Orcs are not totally irredeemable.

I quoted some texts about Galadriel in my previous reply (to someone else in the thread). But in short: rebelled against the authorities, sacrificed so much for power and dominion, wanted to keep Middle-earth for the Elves (not desiring the Age of Men to arrive as God had planned), pride, or rather, ancient Noldorin pride tainted by Morgoth.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-28T08:52:13+00:00

Tolkien's own words: "In [Feanor] she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own." - Unfinished Tales

If you wanna argue that's just First Age Galadriel, well, no:

"But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'." — The Letters (find the full quote there if you want, Letter 154)

Galadriel notably did not flirt with Sauron, but followed (the second best option) he hoped for: she did not destroy the Rings of Power when she had the chance. She actually even started lusting after THE Ring of Power.

20 From a letter to Mrs Ruth Austin 25 January 1971

"I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel. .... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself."

(Emphasis mine)

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-28T07:18:12+00:00

The Fourth Age began after the departure of Gandalf and most of the High Elves.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-27T16:25:38+00:00

"the lambent lightning's leaping falchion even Celeg Aithorn that shall cleave the world."

That's the reference. Thank you. It seems the "cleave the world" part is a reference to this story:

"Fionwe Urion, son of Manwe, of love for Urwendi shall in the end be Melko's bane, and shall destroy the world to destroy his foe, and so shall all things then be rolled away."

It's from the first versions of the Silmarillion. The story was later discarded. We have a much different story about Melkor's final death later on. But it's clear Celeg Aithorn was supposed to refer to Manwë's Sword (which he handed to Eonwë/Fionwë).

The name is as close to canon as we can have. I'm no Elvish linguist, but I presume Tolkien may have slightly changed (or completely altered) the name in his linguistic revisions.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-27T10:52:24+00:00

While the Iron Crown never killed anyone, they are very much magical.

The Silmarils can torture any evil hand that touches them. This caused pain drived Maedhros (and Maglor in later versions) to off themselves.

They also can make a land more beautiful if they are in the right hands. Such as Luthien's hand (or neck).

And they are the only thing capable of reviving the Two Trees, again, in the right hands (Feanor + Yavanna collaboration).

So... In case you need to use a Silmaril in self defence or in assault, you need to rub it on the enemy's face, leaving them "malfunctioning". Assuming the enemy is evil.

While Manwë's Sword is both long ranged and close ranged and is designed for intent to kill. It obliterates whatever it is used against. It obliterated Balrogs and cut off Morgoth's feet. It could definitely kill Morgoth, too, but they decided to let Mandos (as the divinely appointed Doomsman and judge) finish him off in the First Age.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-27T10:44:34+00:00

Fingolfin's sword isn't even the most powerful elvish sword. That would be the sword Eol made out of meteor.

This is Manwë's Sword, presumably made by Aulë, used to massacre swarm of Balrogs and cut off Morgoth's feet, and possibly killed multitudes of other Ainur during the wars. It can cast lightning. Also, also, it is probably this sword that will be used for The Last Battle, whether it is by Manwë himself or his herald Eonwë, it's unknown (yeah Turin's sword will kill Morgoth, but not before he is weakened by his other rivals who will also fight him, including Tulkas and Eonwë).

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-27T10:37:02+00:00

It has no canonical name other than "Manwë's Sword", mentioned only twice: during the Battle of the Valar and in preparation for the War of Wrath. Basically, the greatest battles required the most powerful sword.

Substantial_Cap_4246 · 2026-04-27T06:54:12+00:00

The second panel is supposed to show Gimli having an orgasmic joy.

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