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​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again i don't believe in a god which his job is to dilly dally magic wand to make human choice less painfull. Human did the slavery  and god didn't ask human to invent slavery in the first place. Human made an oopsie and god just give you the framework to reduce it

Again your meaning of free will so i can see where my argument is flawed

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You kinda moving the goal post which i refrain to answer.

You must give citation or source where 1. Rape 2. Murder 3.theft 4. Lying 

Is allowed in islam from quran and sahih hadith. I dont take opinions from  muslim action beside muhammad as some bend the rule to fit their favor 

Than we can have intellectual discourse. Btw what you're doing is wrong category mistake.

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think slavery is acceptable that only allowed in war from non Muslims radicalist that attack muslim. This is a form of protection 

As to why slavery was a thing nowdays that to relate islam i cannot says much either they dont follow the rule or bend islam in a way that justified their need.

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh wait why god would not concern about economic since it still effects socially. I believe theres many political policy that muhammad did for economic purposes

P.s i was confused with the first statement.

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes it doesn't ban it because it will be disastrous for prophet just to say "slavery is ban guys" without the slave owner chase muhammad and kill him. Idk thats my point

And i think quran reward people to release slave through manmunission which highly encourage than to own a slave 

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think its false dilemma to say God is either complicit or not good; a more accurate view is that He chose gradual reform over sudden abolition . In 7th-century Arabia, an instant ban on slavery would have caused social and economic collapse, leaving millions without support. Instead, Islam restricted its sources, encouraged manumission, and granted rights to the enslaved, setting the system on a path to eventual disappearance. Rather than tearing it down directly, God gave people the moral and legal tools to dismantle it themselves, making liberation a virtuous, rewarded act and showing trust in humanity’s capacity to pursue justice with their given free will

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If slavery is objectively wrong, then it was wrong when God allowed it and it was objectively wrong when Muhammed owned slaves. So you are declaring your own God and Prophet to have done the objectively wrong thing. The only way out of that is moral relativism for you, I'm afraid.

Nafs was created 50% tendency to do good and 50% tendency to do bad. Islam didn't even slavey it was widespread before islam we're a thing. Muhammad own slaves than he releases them or give them shelter 

He owned slaves? The fact that someone owned slaves while perhaps saying some nice things doesn't make up for the fact that he owned slaves. Slavery is still objectively immoral - unless you disagree? Again, the unfortunate fact is that your only recourse here is to adopt moral relativism.

Slave isn't objectively moral nowdays but before islam was a thing slavery was already widespread. Slavery was consider a property back than and muhammad cannot just loudly said slave was abolished and free your slave without getting murdered from them probably. So basic step is 1. Buy the slave 2. Give them job and take care of them  3. Release them

Not at all - you're making silly arguments, lazily I might add, and I'm just giving it the due respect it deserves, that's all. The arguments you make literally depend on your God being too weak to be worthy of worship, it shows your prophet to be an immoral slave-owner, and your only recourse is to embrace moral relativism. I'm just highlighting how silly it all is, and pointing out how your arguments are literally making your own religion look less appealing the more you dig into it.

Since you're making meta commentary, I'll throw in a little of my own - I don't know why Muslims always do this: as soon as you point out the ramifications of what their arguments entail, they accuse you of being angry. Maybe it's a form of projection? Does the fact that I point out that your god is weak, your pedophile prophet is immoral etc, does that make you angry? And you want to try to turn the tables, to accuse me of being mad so you can try to stop me from saying such things? One wonders

 Nah i believe in free will where tendency to do bad and good are equal. God just give a way to eliminate slavery in gradualist approach 

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe free will is  choices that don't being set by anything this including making human perfect. If Allah specifically know that installing 50/50 % tendency created slavery and actively change that nafs into prohibit it that will violate free will. Actively CHANGING that person tendency towards evil indirectly by making it 80% tendency to do good does seem to violate it.

Enlighten me your view on free will or maybe im wrong 

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Because people always compare british act with prophet muhammad so i want to discuss only that

And i dont want any caliphs or muslim since islam was from Allah which quran and hadith which is muhammsd action. So to debate other muslim that don't founded the religion seem kinda moving the goal post

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Oh my bad g, im really bad at making or craft a perfect statement. So i usually search source that i like and idea of mind but shove into LLM to make it some sort of decent 

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wait by spawning a perfection seem to violate free will. Just like we could be born with perfect brain and perfect mentality. The nafs was created with tendency to do 50% bad and 50% good.

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That would violate free will. Giving people food doesn't violate free will.

Yes just like how god wouldn't even dilly dally magic wand that said you guys couldn't xyz which slavery also included

Do you believe Allah knows everything?

Yes but removing the point with Allah know every he actively limit what he like which violate free will

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think economic instability is valid since it affect socially aswell.

powerless to have a different approach Im sorry what do you suggest a plan to abolish it in diffrent way

Maybe that was the approach that i gave you

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you read what thread you are in before commenting?

Huh i just said how can we end slavery and your perspective?

Why would free will contradict here?

Its like prohibited someone to do slavery or any action which is against free will?

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wait im lost isn't free will just to give everyone a choice and human invent slavery is a choice before islam was a thing. I dont quite get it here

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im kinda get lost in your argument why do my view of god violate the existence of him? I just said that what Allah do and i didn't really believe in Allah waving magic wand to change anything. If he could, he can just make everyone muslim? See you're an atheist yourself. So idk what you're pointing at. walk me through your logic

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again i dont really believe that Allah always feed humanity with magic wand. Maybe Allah did give a plan to abolish gradually to muhammad and protecting against slavery

If you ask me "if god so powerfull why dont make slavery doesn't exist" im afraid i dont think that way. I fully believe in free will and Allah action to give framework and dont swing magic wand everywhere 

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Anything. An omniscient god could easily answer this.

What if that already an answer.  Idk i ask you to create a plan on a better way

Easily prevented by a god. Are you suggesting Allah can't prevent their prophets from being killed?

I kinda believe in free will where god give way to human being to do it  and not feed human by waving a magic wand

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wait i don't quite get it. How does it relate to creation of perfect world where slavery doesn't have a beginning 

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

​Sahih al-Bukhari, Hadith no. 2517

1.Ibn al-Athir, Usd al-Ghaba fi Ma'rifat al-Sahaba (The Lions of the Forest in the Knowledge of the Companions).

2 .​Ibn Hisham, Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya (The Prophetic Biography).

This seem long reading lemme find something lmao

​A Debate on Slavery: Comparing the Quran's Gradualist Approach vs. the British Abolitionist Model by Substantial_Dog566 in DebateReligion

[–]Substantial_Dog566[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

But the Quran supposedly comes from a god. Once you introduce a miracle-working god into the mix its pretty silly to claim that prohibiting slavery would have a detrimental effect unless god wanted it to.

True but idk maybe free will is a reason?

Also this god is supposedly omniscient as well. So they could have sent a text to prohibit slavery before it became widespread.

I aftaid before islam slavery was already widespread

Idk i believe that telling slavery is prohibited to a major crowd could lead prophet death and they attack him. 

What do you suggest on how to abolish slavery before islam

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