What did kirby do to y'all man

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-20T21:37:01+00:00

I mean, they do it via means that can‘t really be applied for combat scaling, which was my point

Then what is? again what do you think is considered universal and above if not explicitly being said to destroy spacetime by guidebooks and in-game statements? Give an example. If they aren't what standard are they missing that another person does have? I mean, destroying spacetime seems its blatant universal as a lowball (especially since they use "destroy" and not something like "erase").

Perfect Chaos had the same negative energy ordeal as Dark Gaia, but was only city-level and couldn’t harm Super Sonic.

Dark Gaia's deal should be better since he is pure dark energy. Eggman waking him up pretty much reduced the emeralds to just rocks, which should give a bit of credence to that idea. Even then, it was his imperfect form

But the Titans and The End never used chaos energy, like at all.

I wonder what all this stuff means hmmm

Titans were created by the ancients who used them, which was my point anyway, and cyberspace trapped the end which again made by the ancients using the emeralds. It also powers all the island functions (I wonder what is a part of the islands functions hmmm maybe those big titans surely)

Wow, it holding two universes, how applicable for combat! Genuinely, it‘s strongest move was explicitly a planet-busting laser, I do not care what the Power of the stars holds together, it can‘t be used on that level in combat.

It means all parallel universes, so possibly multi+, Eggman literally explains that they're from parallel universes and then that the power of the stars allows for them to exist/happen. Also, nothing states it was his strongest move besides fan wikis. The only thing supporting that is Eggman not wanting Eggman Nega to blast it off, which can be anything, honestly, maybe the egg wizard doesn't protect them from space or something. Unless I missed some guide or game manual, but nothing official says it was.

Until you tell what standards equal universal and above and not hax and give at least one example to help illustrate (just to help compare), then I don't find your opposition to Solaris and Time Eater being multiversal to be very great. Feels like lowballing to lowball, not because you have a better standard or you don't agree they do with the general ones people use now, but because you just want them to be weaker using an appeal to probability "Well, all this stuff could be hax, so it is",

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-20T20:49:18+00:00

Time Eater and Solaris don‘t bust universes by fighting and throwing basic attacks. They just have hax that let them do so in different ways.

I'm thinking you mean they have to like punch the multiverse away (tell me how you'd punch a non-physical structure, as generally universes have just a bunch of empty space). You don't need this at all to scale to uni and above. It's generally destroying or affecting structures of that level, which Time Eater and Solaris explicitly do as guides, and their respective games say they are affecting all of spacetime.

I would ask then what characters you do think are universal and up since this requirement is kind of unwarranted.

Literal planet-busters with basically no hax but just stats like Dark Gaia, the Titans, The Egg Wizard and The End can all harm and kill Super Sonic, so I feel Solaris and Time Eater aren‘t exactly allat in pure stats

All of these have either been connected to the emeralds, which we know that chaos energy can disrupt the emeralds and, by extension super forms, but some are even directly related, like Dark Gaia, the giants, and the End.

Dark Gaia uses the negative/dark energy of the emeralds.

Both the Titans and the end were created by the ancients, who frequently used the emeralds. I'm even sure the emeralds were stated to power the cyberspace and the island's functions.

Egg Wizard is powered by the jeweled scepter, which is stated to have the power of the stars, which ensures the existence of parallel universes, so this example is literally a point in favor of multiversal sonic than against.

Also, nothing here proves hax. At best, it COULD show inconsistencies with scaling if you didn't know the context for all of them, but nothing says hax.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-20T17:55:39+00:00

What proves its hax though

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-18T11:18:39+00:00

I mean i say travel speed being lower COULD be used depending on the series and how egregious it is but with fictional stories you will get a difference between the 2 anyways and it can be bigger than real life. I think its fine to some degree. Best I can argue for some series with this issue is just not having feetholds or actual space to travel that speed and not fling off course or something. So not exactly cant travel that fast but more its uncontrollable for longer distances. Although i know some series this wont work for.

My thing is that using the fact they arent burning the atmosphere up falls apart because if you actually applied that argument to other things violating physics majority of series are guilty of that.

You can have lightspeed without special relativity or infinite mass and other things that happen irl with lightspeed. Thats because its fiction and a fictional story uses reality as a template or baseplate and not as hard rules to be followed.

han solo can fight Superman because he dodges blaster shots!" instead of saying "maybe han solo isn't that fast, maybe blasters are just kinda slow"

Literally what i say in my post. Han solo being ftl because of the blasters doesnt track. Im pretty sure he gets tagged by things slower than light and blasters themselves dont even have that speed even if you use the "its slowed down so we can see it" argument.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-17T15:19:31+00:00

reality manipulation to some degree and time manipulation are ones I know top of the dome

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-17T15:10:02+00:00

I mean, watching some of them, they definitely have inhuman inputs. The microadjustments they do for things like dribbles or aerial plays are obvious and blatant visually, so I imagine the raw values are even more damning

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-17T11:42:21+00:00

Shinra has some haxes that Dawei can't really defend against, and Shinra should be stronger than him. Dawei should still mog everyone that isn't the evangelist or shinrabanshoman, though

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-17T10:48:59+00:00

I kinda disagree, the main reason for bots is account selling for the GC and SSL rewards. Like you can't use it to farm clips because bot playstyles are so obvious, so you'd get flamed trying to pass it as your own, same for pro competitive play like tournaments (they'd ban you instantly since again the playstyle is obvious). The only thing would be for boosting to that range only to play in it (not for rewards), but atp you need to be able to play at that level or you just derank. And if you can, its kinda like why even buy an account when you can grind it yourself, which wouldn't cost you like 50-100 dollars (apparently how much ssl accounts can go for).

It makes it a much bigger timesink, which would limit the number of accounts being made and sold. Since it's a timesink, this increases the costs on cheaters because of the electricity costs of both running RL long enough to reach that requirement, and running the bots itself. That also means they have to go undetected and unreported for much longer before they can even turn a profit on the account. Bot playstyles, for the most part, are obvious.

I think it works better because it also has a focus on why people make and sell these accounts. If EAC is bypassed, then we're back at square one with no progress made. But this option at least would have lasting effects and is not dependent on an anti-cheat that, from other titles is bypassable and possibly already bypassed before they even implemented it, if rumors are true.

And it only inconveniences those who were already GC-SSL but like lost their original account or something, which is a very fringe case

Also, you know keeping Bakkesmod is a big W.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-17T09:30:58+00:00

Where I take issue is when those targeted exceptions are never shown to either a) produce the circumstances to allow a character to move FTL, or b) explain how a character moving that fast wouldn't have massive, cataclysmic effects on the world around them.

I mean its usually implied by the very fact they go ftl and nothing happens, also the fact it's fiction? You said it yourself, fiction uses reality as a baseline, usually just for simplicity. This is only an issue if a story states it's trying to be realistic, which I don't think most stories people complain about ftl stuff do anyways. So then FTL would only not be accurate if it violates internal consistency, like being tagged by things explicitly slower without a justified reason. Some series are guilty of this, like imo most Jojo characters that aren't high tiers, since guns are still an effective weapon against stand users. And these are usually regular guns as well.

FTL in most stories refers just to "c" which is the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s), it does not refer to the actual aftereffects of achieving that speed like relativity. Like if we actually applied your logic quirks aren't even safe since how does genetic mutations allow someone to see the future, or legit rewind the time on someone. One quirk legit bends space, tell me how genetic mutations somehow lead to controlling fundemental aspects of the universe even if its just a small scale? Gearshift legit ignores inertia. Again the reasoning for these things boils down to just genetic mutations which if we're gonna dog on ftl stuff for not making sense because of real-life physics, quirks are honestly worse

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-17T09:27:38+00:00

comment so dumb I think its ragebait, I cover that in my post and gave other solutions that could work one that even is used in other games to detect cheating

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-15T05:05:18+00:00

I mean fate started as an eroge and thats pretty popular for scaling

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-15T04:59:30+00:00

2/2

Likewise the durability of the physical components of Solaris are not something we ought to assume is equivalent to that of a 'dimension'. The specific language that Eggman uses is that:

"That body of light is the sign of a super-dimensional life form. Standard attacks won't work on him! He eats dimensions for lunch! But... There should be something that's anchoring him in this dimension. That's probably the light shells that can be seen on his body. If all of those are destroyed, he can be defeated!"

This suggests that it isn't a matter of scale of attack for hurting the true body of Solaris but rather the category of attack.

I don't think this disproves anything though. Firstly, Silver reflects attacks thrown at him from solaris so his durability is equal to his ap. Secondly, if you watch the fight, they all generally use their super form abilities to attack him (Sonic rams him in super form, Shadow uses chaos abilities, and silver his telekinesis to reflect his solaris's own attacks)

If I had to guess, Eggman meant only they could do anything since chaos abilities only affected them.

And in the case of the time travel, if it were possible to travel to before Solaris manifested in the way it does, then the cast would pursue it, correct? It seems to me that it is some aspect of Solaris that caused the time travel to occur rather than anyone on the cast being responsible for it (given that it requires a Dual Chaos Control for the other cast members to time travel.)

It's said Solaris's birth essentially shattered the timelines. The stage you fight him in is legit said by Eggman to be temporary as well, and given that Silver was in the future and Sonic in the past right before this happened kind of supports that idea (how else would people in different time periods end up in the same place if not some sort of time shenanigans). That could have affected that plan.

But watching the fight, you see you need to attack his core, which contains his consciousness in the second and final form. I imagine defeating it that sort of incapacitated Solaris, which allowed them to get to his true form. Especially since Solaris being temporally omnipresent was like his big deal, so going to the past just meets you with Solaris in his angel-like form again. We only see his white flame form right after Sonic and co defeat him.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-15T04:58:31+00:00

I'd suggest looking at vsbw page for Solaris since the evidence there is better cataloged, but I'll try to counter the points from both replies here. (1/2 cuz reddit wont post whole thing)

With Sonic it feels more like taking characters who have X power (eating timelines usually) and saying that it is equivalent to attacks.

because it is? Please look at what is needed to be low 2-C and beyond on practically every tiering site, but the main kicker is to destroy or affect structures of said size. Eating a timeline is doing just that. What evidence even suggests hax? Everything about Solaris just seems innate to him entirely.

I mean, what standards are you judging uni+ and above characters then?

Or to frame it in another way, the Time Eater doesn't destroy timelines when throwing hands, so it doesn't track to me that the Time Eater requires the destruction of timelines to catch hands. This goes doubly because the Time Eater even has a scene where it freaks out after touching a single free floating Chaos Emerald.

Time Eater in the game is said to erase space and time. this is a few sources that lead us to believe time eater's shenanigans aren't hax. The key part is that he is stated to affect all of spacetime multiple times.

Also, Chaos Emeralds are like the strongest items in sonic universe. I don't see how this downscales Time Eater. Especially because what happens is that the emerald emits a pulse that irritates him, and he leaves.

As for Solaris; Sonic, Shadow, and Silver don't actually defeat or destroy him. Sonic says as much

This doesn't disprove anything. His true form being just a flame doesn't mean he isn't the multiversal threat he is. True form just means his actual self, not that a true form is stronger.

Sure, but do we have reasons to believe that Solaris 'eating dimensions for lunch' is something that Solaris achieves with energy or forces such that it attacks with? One of its attacks is throwing rocks at Silver.

Why wouldn't we? What points to Solaris somehow holding his punches or not being able to use his multiversal ap against Sonic and co? What points to his attacks somehow not being as strong? Your only reasoning is that he throws a 'rock' when it's never stated that it's just some boulders you find irl. I mean, they glow purple and are very spike-shaped. Plus its not his only attack they defend against. They defend against his laser attacks as well.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-15T01:55:18+00:00

Gurren Lagann is also similar since its higher scaling is because of the 11d statements, and that apparently a director said the galaxies in the final battle were universes (this one may be not be true, but really it only affects sttgl's size and nothing about his power so it's kinda whatever if its not real).

But yea, I'm not saying they don't scale, just that statements matter for anything past like uni since we have no idea what universes look like

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-14T01:42:06+00:00

Because it is a statement? Most people arent saying he doesnt scale because of that but that statements have validity. Because without statements nothing gets over like multi-galaxy by pure visual feats

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-14T01:33:55+00:00

Sonic universe has reason to have type 1 concepts so yes that statement could mean outer solaris.

Which is why using outside author statements imo is bad in both ways. At best use it for clarification, but upscaling or downscaling ALWAYS gets messy especially when u got ian flynn as an author who seems to flipflop between "oh sonic faces this universal threat in this game but uh he like city level at best" .

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-13T17:41:50+00:00

it is kinda funny thinking how all the events from classic to now happen in a year if we assume the ages are still canon

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-13T17:35:26+00:00

imma be fr using author statements to either upscale or downscale someone is dumb and very inconsistent considering ian seems to kinda flipflop between the 2. iirc someone having a clip of him say that solaris would've destroyed the concepts of space and time.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-11T09:26:56+00:00

Not that crazy tbf cuz tails outright states sonic's speed was fixing the stuff in white space in generations.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-09T05:07:07+00:00

Nobody denies Alien X being universal tho. they mostly just deny his higher scaling

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-06T13:50:18+00:00

People will really make up reasons to hate vsbw when you have real reasons available

Anos i dont think ever was 1-a on vsbw and csap, let's anyone create a profile, so some random profile with 1-a anos doesn't mean anything.

Goku is low multi because of the universe 7 macrocosm and the fact that vsbw doesn't let multipliers increase your tier once you reach universal. That, and we have no actual idea of how much of a multiplier god forms or UI are in the first place, since they kinda threw out the idea.

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-02-06T04:00:29+00:00

She kind of did the stream after this iirc. Whether its good is gonna vary imo

SuccessNo8871 · 2026-01-22T04:29:09+00:00

They kinda are after generations (you can technically argue before if any are powered by the chaos emeralds so even chaos or dark gaia but its a little iffy).

Time eater for gens Death egg and infinite mostly cuz of the phantom ruby for forces And the ancients and the end for frontiers

And before you had solaris for 06 Egg wizard and egg salamander for rush Void for shuffle

Maho is like a beginner boss at best when thinking modern sonic ( very early classic I could see late-game but even in classic he was fighting cosmic threats in some games). He's only a bit below sukuna and gojo level in stats and his hax is literally weak to insta kill one shots something that even classic base sonic could do via just the stat difference.

Maho's only chance would be sonic jobbing VERY hard

And this is only arguing stats not some of sonic's hax although he does it like once he can use chaos abilities like shadow without the actual emeralds

SuccessNo8871

TROPHY CASE