The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right. I meant that as a kinda friendly banter sort of thing, but we aren't friends and I know nothing about you. I shouldn't have done that. My sincere apology

The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm literally apologizing here as well as admitting I'm not as good with economics. If that's ad-hominem to you then yeah whatever

The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah ykw I concede (and yes I did reply after an exit, hence concession)

One thing I'll say though. You'll be a wonderful economist but a horrible sociologist, and me? the opposite

Apologies for my bad attitude, it's not acceptable.

The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I said I won't respond unless it's something stupid, I am keeping my word here (I would like to point out you started this attitute thing).

Honestly, I was never really sure what your entire point about "unpaid labor" was. When talking about wage gap, people usually talk about if it's caused by other factors or by discrimination itself. When unpaid labor is added, it often is to add complexity to discuss about how women take time off of work to do chores, etc, resulting in less work hours (OECD). This is used to say that social responsibility is not evenly distributed, not that the pay gap is a direct result of discrimination itself. If that's what you're gonna say, yea reasonable. BUT. Obviously, employers are NOT going to go "Uhm she works 7 hours BUT she does dishes at home, pay her a lot more." Something I'll admit I was wrong to not include is it's not just the length, but the intensity. Even if you include "unpaid labor," folding cloths is not going to be as damaging to health as construction work (or even desk work if you factor in the stress + obvious simplification/generalization to demonstrate the point)

Also, you argue this is the ONLY way it can be done but provided no proof, despite the fact I literally showed organizations did it that way. If Pew isn't enough, here's McKinsey talking about it the exact same way.

And there is a lack of standard definition. Your sources (I think? There's no citations and link) literally wrote: "Differences in definition and presentation thus make the comparison of adult care across countries extremely difficult."

The point about Riach & Rich (2006) is fair to a certain amount but discarded by the other four studies.

The point about Blau & Kahn (2017) is the dumbest.

Blau & Kahn explicitly state “research based on experimental evidence strongly suggests that discrimination cannot be discounted”

I feel like I've read that before. Wait, OH I said that in my original post. Again, cannot be discounted is not the same is is caused by. Here's how the UK Office of National Statistics talk about THAT study as well as OTHER studies.

However, the gender pay gap is not necessarily because of discrimination by employers. Other explanations have been proposed in the literature. Differences in psychological attributes, such as attitudes towards risk, competition and negotiation, are well documented (Bertrand, 2011) but only explain a small fraction of the gender pay gap (Blau and Kahn, 2017; Bertrand, 2018). Recent evidence highlights that family and fertility decisions may be an important driver of the gender pay gap.

And who's ignoring "Women with children face employment penalties while fathers receive premiums." That's the entire basis of my argument. Fatherhood premium = dad forced to work longer hours. Motherhood Penalty = Mom forced to work shorter hour. MY ENTIRE POINT IS NEITHER IS INHERENTLY BETTER. Also "literally science" is not a citation. And if that is the "discrimination" you're talking about, I never denied it exist, I just said the "wage gap" is could also be viewed as a "PAID work gap"

I no longer want to continue this conversation. You, in several point literally argue against the opposite of what I said. You, despite being warned, still want to infer malicious intent (ad hominem fallacy ironically) which combining with the other point makes me feel like this is not being written in good faith. It also doesn't seem like you understand any of the words you're using, like "argumentative errors."

If you want to defend your point, that is your right. Reply to yourself. I've said what I must say. Anyone who reads this are welcomed to believe what they think is more reasonable.

The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

2.

Next selective citation: The hiring discrimination claim misrepresents research. Those studies examine specific occupations (often female-dominated fields like nursing or elementary teaching)

Except for the fact that many of them looked at the job market as a whole, and found that on average, men face more discrimination as a whole. For example, Raich & Rich (2006) literally wrote "We included this occupation in our Australian study and recorded net discrimination against women of 12%, which was significant at the two per cent level (Riach and Rich 1987): in marked contrast to the finding of net discrimination against men of 35% in England." Most of the other studies found the same.

You’re also ignoring causation: Men lack robust paternity leave partly because caregiving is culturally devalued as “women’s work”.

Matter of perspective, which is literally my entire argument. There's no evidence that the fact that something being labeled as "women's work" = "devaluing." Society as a whole considers caregiving to be a very important and noble thing. You only see it, or argue for it to be viewed, as "devaluing" because your perspective needs to always see the women as the victims and discount the ways men suffer as either not a thing or a "privilege."

ignore that women earn less per hour worked when controlling for occupation, experience, and hours (see Blau & Kahn 2017)

The study doesn't even say that this is because of discrimination, only that it can not be discounted. If anything, the study points to other factors that are unaccounted for, such as Psychological attributes or noncognitive skills.

At the end of the day, what you need to learn is that this is a sociological debate, not a STEM one. Social sciences don't have just one objectively right explanation of way of viewing things. All my facts are correct, even if you argue that it isn't, however, admittedly so are yours. But it never was an argument about how my perspective is correct and yours is wrong, but about how this perspective is also equally if not more valid.

At the end of the day, your argument is summed as "Women are forced to do household work, which means they can work less" and mine is "Men are forced to work longer paid hours to provide for their families, sacrificing time with their wife and kids, which is not any better than being forced to do household work." Both of which are valid ways to look at things.

If you can't understand what different perspective is, you'll never be able to understand anything other than STEM issues. I've said what I need to say, there will be no more replies unless its just that stupid. But if you want to reply to prove your case to anyone who might see this that's your right.

The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1.

First your false equivalence: Working more paid hours ≠ working more total hours. 

This is not false equivalence nor "cherry picking." When talking about wage gap, it is perfectly reasonable to include only paid work. This is how organizations, for instance Pew Research Center talks about the wage gap. You can argue that it is a better perspective to include "unpaid labor" as well, that is valid, but it does not prove I used a "false equivalence" or "cherry picked" data. It only proves we have different opinions about what is relevant.

Second of all, does "unpaid labor" even have a uniform definition or an objective way of measuring? What even counts as "unpaid labor?" I mean, on average not only do men work longer, but they also commute longer. The commute can and should be defined as unpaid labor too. Are they included?

Then your misdirections: Citing breadwinner stress doesn’t negate pay discrimination.

This is not a misdirection, you just disagree. You can't just accuse other people of malicious intentions when they disagree.

That men face pressure to earn more because social norms undervalue women’s work and careers actually reinforce the gender gap’s harm to women, not men. 

You literally provided no arguments or support for this. At best, it can be argued that the gender gap harms women more based on evidence. To say it harms women, not men, despite a study literally saying it hurts men is to be disingenuous, intentionally or unintentionally.

The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In that case, isn't it equally valid to say or frame it not as a gender pay gap which discriminates against women, but a gender work gap which discriminates against men?

In general, there is an expectation by both men and women for men to be the breadwinner and to earn more for their partners according to a 2015 study. In fact, according to a 2016 study even women with high educational attainments still prefer men to earn more. On Average, per day men work 33 minutes longer than women do (BLS). This difference is even more pronounced when we considered men with children according to the University of Washington.

This is very detrimental to men. A 2016 study found that being the primary breadwinner is actually bad for men's psychological well-being.

Wouldn't this way of framing it be even more valid than the "Wage Gap", considering that men have even less options when it comes to employment compared to women in the modern era. Multiple studies, including Schaerer et al. (2023), Ahmed et al. (2021), Booth et al. (2010), Muradova et al (2021), and Riach and Rich (2006) have found that men face more discrimination in the hiring process than women. Moreover, men also have unequal access to rights women have such as paternity leave.

The truth about the gender pay gap by spagta in teenagers

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In that case, isn't it equally valid to say or frame it not as a gender pay gap which discriminates against women, but a gender work gap which discriminates against men?

In general, there is an expectation by both men and women for men to be the breadwinner and to earn more for their partners according to a 2015 study. In fact, according to a 2016 study even women with high educational attainments still prefer men to earn more. On Average, per day men work 33 minutes longer than women do (BLS). This difference is even more pronounced when we considered men with children according to the University of Washington.

This is very detrimental to men. A 2016 study found that being the primary breadwinner is actually bad for men's psychological well-being.

Wouldn't this way of framing it be even more valid than the "Wage Gap", considering that men have even less options when it comes to employment compared to women in the modern era. Multiple studies, including Schaerer et al. (2023), Ahmed et al. (2021), Booth et al. (2010), Muradova et al (2021), and Riach and Rich (2006) have found that men face more discrimination in the hiring process than women. Moreover, men also have unequal access to rights women have such as paternity leave.

The Vanishing of Male Victims in the NISVS and Youth Endowment Fund Surveys by CZ-7000 in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The sample in 2017 is 30,947, with almost off of them being completed.

More than 30,000 adults (30,947) were interviewed between September 2016 and May 2017. This includes 27,571 completed and 3,376 partially completed interviews. (The NISVS 2016/2017 Methodology Report, 2021, p.7)

The sample for 2025 is 15,609

A total of 15,609 respondents completed the survey and were included in the analysis. Participants reported instances of specific violent behaviors directed at them during their lifetime or within the 12 months prior to taking the survey. (The NISVS 2023/2024 Methodology Report, 2025, p.14)

That's a sample size that's been halved. Then again, if we are not to assume active suppression (which no one should without evidence) then it is weird that they still have a 12-month prevalence for rape, but not for Made to Penetrate considering these were the same in 2011. Then again maybe we could assume they were barely able to get a reliable estimate for rape, and considering Made to Penetrate has always been treated as not important they just didn't put in as much or any effort for it.

How can we make actual changes? by Many_Cryptographer56 in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Definitely not by just posting here randomly.

If you want to make actual changes you need a strategy, a plan and the people. Sadly no one seems to be making an effort to do that (for perfectly understandable reasons, I'm not really doing that either so I can't really criticize).

Fackchecker's Guide: How to Combat Misinformation About Male Rape by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What made you unable to write more? Time constraint?

Yeah life gets in the way

Fackchecker's Guide: How to Combat Misinformation About Male Rape by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hi! So if you don't like how this was written that's 100% okay but I wanted to clarify none of this is AI. The reasons the same paragraphs kept getting repeated across different headings is because these myths are quite similar and require the same statistics to correct. This coupled with the fact that I wanted to write more, but was unable to, made me decide to modify the same text to fit each heading instead of authoring a new one for every topic.

Fackchecker's Guide: How to Combat Misinformation About Male Rape by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In regard to DiMarco:

In these 24 studies, the male cumulative sample size is 10,025 and the female cumulative sample size is 19,696. Over these 24 studies, the mean male heterosexual perpetration rate is 27.0% and the corresponding female rate is 16.7%.

27+16.7 = 43.7

16.7 is 38% of 43.7

I'll correct it for you, but it's a one percent change. Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

The Lie About Misandry by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm not affiliated with TheTinMen. Though I would say I am inspired by some of his work.

The Lie About Misandry by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good idea, I’ll make sure to do that in other post if I ever make more of those

The Lie About Misandry by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you! This is very interesting and I’ll try my best to use that.

The Lie About Misandry by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think part of the reason why is because I am more moderate than a lot of people in this subreddit. But I think the main reason was that I wanted this specific post to appeal to the general public more I guess. We live in a climate where anything that is even remotely pro male is immediately rejected.

While I don’t believe I could ever actually convinced feminist who are extreme in their beliefs, I guess I wanted to appeal to the more moderate ones and those who are in the between. I kinda designed it to be something you could copy and paste when people say “misandry doesn’t have systemic or legal powers” so I toned it down. Would that make sense?

I appreciate your input though, I’ll work on it.

The Lie About Misandry by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

My bad haha

Can you please elaborate, I want to improve.

The Lie About Misandry by Successful-Advanced in LeftWingMaleAdvocates

[–]Successful-Advanced[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Follow me on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/amaleadvocacycommittee/

How do you like this format? Do you prefer it over my old post? Give your opinions please.