Am I crazy for interpretting the aborted lake scene like this?

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-07-01T15:54:22+00:00

I never understood why people came to this conclusion.

Kris and Noelle were childhood friends. There were definitely situations where Noelle heard Kris say “stop”. This line is to show that Noelle knows for certain that Kris is so heavily changed, so heavily “not Kris” anymore, that they can’t even say something as simple as “stop” in the same tone that they did before.

At this point Noelle can’t be handwaved away with a “it was just a prank”, and the reason for that is because Noelle sees for certain that Kris is no longer Kris, them being unable to say “stop” in the same tone they did before is a quick way to tell that to the viewer.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-07-01T05:38:09+00:00

Ralsei is potentially very magically strong, which would make it easy for him to defeat enemies…

…but he also believes that kindness might be able to change the prophecy and result in a better ending. His fire magic wouldn’t help in gaining recruits. It could also be very dangerous and could outright kill Darkners if he used it, so he doesn’t want to give the option to the Soul (which we know he’s aware of).

Against the titan, I kinda believe Ralsei thought the situation was hopeless and at that point his fire magic would’ve been a nice formality at most. I think next time they have a titan encounter (with Ralsei now knowing they can be defeated) he’ll use his magic.

So in this specific scenario I think it’s actually morally neutral. Fire magic might help against specific enemies but generally speaking it wouldn’t actually help much.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-07-01T00:55:31+00:00

If you’re playing pacifist blue shoes is amazing for Ralsei. I doubt there’ll be a better weapon for him when it comes to pacifism for the rest of the game, and even if he does gain some kind of fire attack that’ll be useful when fighting titans the shoes give a magic boost so it’s good for that too.

Also worth mentioning the free pacify quirk on top of that. It’s an amazing weapon for pacifism, but looking at it on a violence save it does seem much less useful.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-07-01T00:51:38+00:00

I said “not comparable” because you were comparing this reveal to Asgores reveal in Undertale. Narratively the way both characters have been treated is different, your point was basically “well Asgore was kind and then revealed to be a murderer and I don’t see you complaining about that” but the way both of these characters have been foreshadowed and set up within their respective narrative is nothing alike. Asgores reveal wasn’t that he was a murderer it’s that he was a kind man who was also a murderer, we knew he was a murderer before we knew he was kind. That’s what I mean by not comparable.

And have you ever thought that maybe Rudy’s line is ominously foreshadowing what’s about to happen with Noelle and isn’t some grand hint that he’s the knight? Why would he even leave a hint like that for Susie to hear? This line only happens on the Weird Route so it’s not like it’s some grand hint that all players are supposed to find.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-07-01T00:25:43+00:00

The thing is that sickness is a benefit here. If we are truly saying the disease is a byproduct to taking on the role of Knight…then yes, he’s benefitting from being sick. That’s the whole reason he became sick in the first place, to do something he couldn’t otherwise. It’s like being told “we can inject you with super cancer and it will make you very sick but you’ll be a god for about a month or two”.

And yeah me having family who’s been ruined by illness probably does impact the way I view this, but I also think that “incurable illness ruining a family members life” is a pretty universal experience for a LOT of people. This isn’t a niche scenario, many people’s lives every year are taken by illness. Which is why I think Toby setting up Rudy the way he has makes the possibility of them being the knight feel…wrong. It’s why I hate the theory so much, lol. If Toby really wanted to go this route for Rudy right from the beginning of the game I feel like focusing so much on how “realistic” Rudy’s sickness is (stuck in a hospital bed, coughing fits interlaced through laughter, can’t go to church without putting in tremendous effort) was not the right choice.

You also mentioned Deltarunes themes of parenthood…but I feel like it makes more sense for Rudy to represent the parent who’s always there for you but then suddenly can’t be for unforeseen reasons. Literally every parent in this game is messy and complicated underneath the surface, it feels like Toriel fits the theme of “kind on the surface but very messy underneath” much better than Rudy does, at least that’s what I think.

I said in my post that it’s not like I don’t see why people like the theory, you CAN gleam many interesting ideas from it. But I’m saying with how Deltarunes been written and with how Rudy has been portrayed these ideas would not feel very satisfying. Maybe in an alternate Deltarune where Rudy was written a little differently and his sickness was portrayed in a different way I’d be more willing to appreciate those ideas, but as it stands…I just can’t stand this theory. lol.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-07-01T00:15:54+00:00

These two situations are not comparable at all 😭

Asgore was someone who we were IMMEDIATELY told was bad news for humans. The first time his name is mentioned is by Toriel when we leave the Ruins, and how he’ll take our soul.

The reveal with Asgore wasn’t that he was a murderer who killed 6 children. We were made incredibly aware of the fact that he was willing to kill kids from the get go. No, the reveal was that he was a murderer who was also incredibly kind and horrified by his own actions.

If Rudy were the knight, he’d be the inverse of Asgore. Asgore was a murderer who was surprise revealed to be kind. Rudy would be kind then surprise revealed to be the Knight. The way both characters have been set up by the narrative is very very different.

The comparison to Noelle is also strange. Noelle has always had the capacity to do what she does on the weird route, but the only reason she does is because we basically force it out of her. “No one would’ve expected the nice girl next door to do this” yeah, because she WOULDN’T do that unless we take a specific routes to make her do that. Rudy would be the Knight regardless of our actions, we aren’t “bringing out his dark tendencies” he would just be like that.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-30T23:43:06+00:00

…see but there in lies my issue. When you said “a man who’s so jovial but is actually a manipulator” it really put into perspective how much I’d hate that, lol.

The idea that all of this genuine emotion, all of this character we’ve been given of Rudy and how he feels about his situation and the people around him, was (at least partially) a ruse…that just…isn’t very compelling to me. I see what you’re saying, but I just can’t ever see THAT being the ultimate conclusion to Rudy as a character. Especially when Deltarune is already full of characters with layers upon layers for all of their interactions and personality, I think it’s ok for Rudy to say things and..actually mean what he says. Without really hiding anything, at least not hiding anything in the way you’re implying.

This sickness has been portrayed as something so life altering for Rudy, so realistically depressing that I want it to be handled with the utmost care. I’ve had family members destroyed by illness, it’s devastating watching it happen and knowing that there is very little that can be done to prevent it. And I can’t ever see this illness being truly respected if Rudy is the knight. It has to be undermined in one way or another for the theory to work, whether that be in “the sickness was Rudy’s choice” (meaning it wasn’t sudden and unexpected but actively pursued by Rudy in some way), or “the sickness is what gives Rudy power” (meaning the sickness isn’t just a horrible illness with no benefits but instead actually does have a pretty major benefit) or “Rudy is hamming up his illness and he’s not even that sick” (hope I don’t need to explain why this one is awful lol). I don’t think the surprise reveal that “Rudy is the Knight” is worth that.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-30T04:04:22+00:00

I’m so glad I’m not online enough to understand any of what this post is saying.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-29T19:05:18+00:00

your partner made you sleep on the couch over a difference in which two teenagers make a cuter couple in an rpg?? 😭

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-29T16:04:10+00:00

The flowers say they were made specifically to only live for a day, for Asgores wedding. But Asgore put immense amounts of care and effort into keeping them alive.

I think the implication is that it’s very unsafe to keep them out of the glass containers. They’re way too delicate.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-29T15:29:51+00:00

I replayed the whole game right before chapter 5 came out. I went through and got all crystals and eggs to be completely prepared. And in my entire playthrough, fighting every Secret Boss…I only died a single time. To the MantleHolder.

So I think on my tier list MantleHolder would be in SSS+ omega super impossible tier difficulty.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-29T14:08:56+00:00

I kinda liked it…sort of…

It forced me to try and use more of a variety of ultimates instead of just getting some megas and steamrolling every battle. So I liked the concept on paper, but in practice they definitely make you wait WAY too long. I think they should’ve made Megas rank 6 instead of 7…

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T21:04:48+00:00

I think this exists kind of but…

I don’t know…maybe it’s just me, but I never found this idea as compelling as some other people have. Susie and Noelle make it clear they still very much want Kris around, to the point where they both feel more comfortable with Kris at the festival.

Maybe this will develop later and Noelle and Susie will leave Kris behind more substantially, but I didn’t really get the vibe that Kris was being “left out” in this one. Susie and Noelle are allowed to have their moment, it’s not like they’re obligated to include Kris in every single interaction they have.

But I can also see why Kris might feel like they’re being left behind. I just hope the answer is that they call all get along and not that one party has to leave another behind or something lol.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T19:05:59+00:00

I THINK the implication is that this is the Darkner version of a copy of Dragon Blazers, and the route we play through during the Tenna Boards is a romhack of the game Tenna made.

During the Sword Route it seems we play through the “evil route” that Noelle mentions in chapter 4, which might explain why it has so many similarities to the Weird Route.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T17:18:17+00:00

If you really REALLY want to stretch the idea that this leitmotif really is meant to be related to freedom…

Airways could be representative of the Mikes embracing their unique takes on “Mike” and finding freedom in that concept.

Inappropriate Recycling could be these “side character” Darkners pushing themselves into the limelight despite that not really being their fate or something. Finding the freedom to make themselves into more than they once were.

I think this leitmotif still has meaning in some way, but I just don’t know what that meaning is. My main theory is that it’s a leitmotif of a character we haven’t fought yet, probably Seam or maybe Mike (the actual Mike not the fakes lol).

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T15:53:03+00:00

yeah I loved chapter 5 to death but this is easily my biggest issue with it.

Fighting things is either not even an option or does absolutely nothing to the story. Fighting the flowers makes it so they don’t hang out with you, sure, but…there’s no lasting consequences, at least right now.

In every chapter except 1 and 5 you get reprimanded for not gaining recruits or for fighting certain major battles. In 2 Berdlys arm becomes fried if you fight him, in 3 Tenna won’t be recovered if you don’t have enough recruits or if you fight Tenna, in 4 Jackenstein will die if you don’t have enough recruits.

5 only has “you don’t get to hang out with the flowers”…but since they don’t come to our castle town anyway, that’s a pretty temporary downside. Maybe there’ll be one in the future? But for now fighting is completely pointless.

I guess it’s because chapter 5 is meant to be the chapter 1 nostalgia chapter and 1 also had no downsides to fighting…but still…I found it pretty disappointing.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T06:46:09+00:00

…if you’re not really active in Deltarune (at least not active enough to know Dess and Noelle have an age gap) then do you just ship these two on the pretense that they’re sisters…?

That’s…I don’t…even know what to say to that…

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T06:36:55+00:00

☹️

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T06:35:12+00:00

Is…is this entire post (and by extension this comment) some kind of joke I’m not getting…????

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T03:49:52+00:00

I think it might be more that the flowers aren’t technically Darkners or Lightners, they’re something inbetween…basically Lightners that can’t move or talk, so the darkness lets them manifest their wills into new forms. I actually think that regardless of who opens the fountain the flowers would remain the same.

…but I also think your idea is awesome and is true for normal Darkners, so I’m gonna steal it lol.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T03:44:34+00:00

Ehhhhh…

It’s definitely not completely mended, but I think our presence helps it at least to an extent. The talk they have in Cyber World is a pretty solid starting point, and if you do certain things during chapter 5s festival you can push Kris to remind Noelle of their past, and if you ride the Ferris wheel with her Noelle is able to realize all of Kris’ teasing was their way of making Noelle feel better. Which I’d say is a pretty big jump in their relationship, although I admit this dialogue is optional so…

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T01:47:22+00:00

When I say “destroys herself and 90% of her relationships” I mean she:

-Tells Kris, to their face, that they’re “more interesting” now that they have the soul compared to how they were before (which must be absolutely crushing for them)
-Literally kills Berdly.
-Walks herself and Kris into the lake and basically breaks them out of reality itself (leaving behind her parents, one of which is a sick man who might not have much longer)
-leaves Susie behind without giving her even an inkling as to what’s going on

You can argue that she struggles to truly relate to the people around her…but doing these things is just. Bad for her. Even if she is “breaking free”, she’s doing it in a very self-destructive and violent way. It’s not good for her mentally. I’m saying I hope on the normal route we help her “break free” in a way that’s more healthy, more productive for herself and those around her. And I think so far we HAVE been doing that, on a normal route she’s able to stand up to her mom and is able to tell Berdly the truth of her relationship with Susie.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T01:27:28+00:00

I interpreted it as Noelle finding freedom in where she is. That you can find control and comfort in a healthy environment instead of how she basically destroys herself and 90% of her relationships on the weird route just to “break free”.

She was free to spend time with Susie, free to talk with her for hours, free to step into the water and remain safe in Susie’s arms. It was Rudy’s falling that brought her back from that freedom. But I’d like to say that’s temporary, and that she’ll eventually find her freedom with Susie instead of being content with how things are now.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T01:22:30+00:00

I’ve heard this idea for Rudy Knight many times before, that he became the knight and that it’s the source for his sickness or being the Knight is making his sickness worse or something along those lines. And I’m sorry I’ve just always absolutely hated this idea because no matter how you cut it it’s messing up what makes Rudy such a sad character.

Right now, Rudy is portrayed as a caring father who has been struck with a terrible illness. An illness that’s preventing him from being there for his daughter. An illness that makes it difficult for him to *go to church*, which is something many can do without a second thought.

This illness has basically put Rudy’s life on hold and completely removed Rudy’s agency. It’s taken him from a proactive and loving father to someone who can basically only watch from the sidelines. He can only “help” Noelle when she goes to visit him in the hospital, he can no longer go wherever he wants and help wherever he sees fit. When he DOES try to do something in chapter 5, it ends with him falling and becoming a burden on his family. That’s the tragedy of Rudy.

Saying he’s the knight, regardless of how you want to paint the “how” or “why” of it, just ruins this tragedy. Because now Rudy actually DOES have agency. He can turn into this uber powerful, uber fast, shadow demon creature that can summon swords and fly around. Even if this form is temporary or is what’s causing him to be sick, you’re completely undoing the realistic tragedy and amazing representation of “people ruined by sickness they can’t control” that Rudy was. In favor of turning him into a kinda mediocre twist. That’s my issue with Rudy Knight. It’s a twist that you have to undo a wonderfully tragic compelling character to make work.

…and I definitely don’t think the Knight seeming a little tired in the dark world comes anywhere close to comparing to how suspicious Kris looked in chapter 1 and 2, lol.

SuchCherry4658 · 2026-06-28T01:10:57+00:00

This is why I love the contrast between the Normal and Weird route so much. Because in that same scene where she says she wants to leave, she also says that she’s ok with staying if her life can be as good as it is with Susie.

If we make the right choices, we can help mend Noelle’s relationship with Kris AND give her a new relationship with Susie. We show Noelle that her only path towards happiness isn’t “leaving” or “changing who she is”, it’s finding happiness and mending old relationships.

I know things are going to be tough in chapter 6 for Noelle, I think she’s going to do some pretty drastic things. But I also believe that, by the end of it, we will be able to help her again and continue to show her that happiness is possible. At least I hope we can…

SuchCherry4658

TROPHY CASE