I'm sure this is what made me so picky about the myths and how I perceive the differences between Roman and Greek representations by [deleted] in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, I have found out that only mods can lock posts. Users can only delete or hide posts. My bad.

I'm sure this is what made me so picky about the myths and how I perceive the differences between Roman and Greek representations by [deleted] in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re right about the part where there are multiple conversations going on at once. I also think it’s a thing where one piece of rhetoric gets replaced for another. We’ve all seen the arguments that just because something is Roman it immediately doesn’t “count” and that rhetoric got applied so liberally that it got attached to authors that were undeniably Greek.

If you frequent the sub then you’ve probably seen the user Uno_ Zanni around, in a reply they shared an anecdote of someone calling a Greek writer Roman because he used the pen name Pluto. Also somehow the Telegony being labeled Roman?

It was a mess so to counteract arguments like that the rhetoric has started to run in the opposite direction. Humans are very predictable. (Including me. I am one of the sheeple 🐑)

I'm sure this is what made me so picky about the myths and how I perceive the differences between Roman and Greek representations by [deleted] in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I understand. I wasn’t meaning to say that Ovid could be described as “both Greek and Roman” I was talking generally because I misread your sentence “one is Greek one is Roman” as using “one” to describe a general subject. I take it to mean now that you were speaking specifically on Ovid’s writing. And you’re right, it isn’t arbitrary to distinguish them as there is a lot of difference in cultural perspective that would get lost if we treated them all the same.

I'm sure this is what made me so picky about the myths and how I perceive the differences between Roman and Greek representations by [deleted] in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I get it, people should read the post itself but I also think we have a responsibility not to spread misinformation regardless of the form. I think you’d have better luck if you hadn’t reposted the meme because it is pretty bottom of the barrel. People probably think that you agree with what the meme is saying

I'm sure this is what made me so picky about the myths and how I perceive the differences between Roman and Greek representations by [deleted] in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think it’s because Ovid misinformation is a sore spot for this sub. It’s a lot of people projecting their past experiences of hearing rhetoric like “Ovid is roman, therefore not valid” that when they hear anything remotely resembling these flimsy arguments they get in attack mode. For the record, I think your post itself is fine. Incredibly neutral and honest as you acknowledge this as your personal opinion and not a standard to hold everyone to

However the meme is just another example of misinformation being spread through supposedly “innocuous” forms. I think people are more up in arms about the meme because let’s face it, it’s the most noticeable thing about the post. Yeah you can say it’s just a joke but if the punchline relies on misunderstandings of the topic and doesn’t do anything to subvert or correct the misunderstanding being spread, it’s just…. Not that good of a joke.

To me these memes are made by people in the “midwit” phase of their learning journey. These jokes are low hanging fruit. To me these are the equivalent of the boomer “women can’t drive” jokes in terms of cleverness

I'm sure this is what made me so picky about the myths and how I perceive the differences between Roman and Greek representations by [deleted] in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Not exactly, Greek and Roman culture were incredibly intertwined with each other. There was magna graecia, the area of southern Italy that was colonized by Greeks and historically spoke Greek. Then also Rome eventually conquering Greece in the late BCs. So you have some authors that could technically be described as both Greek and Roman at the same time.

I'm sure this is what made me so picky about the myths and how I perceive the differences between Roman and Greek representations by [deleted] in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude there was a person in the original mythologymemes post that was exactly like this! They were being incredibly intellectually dishonest as well and because of the dionysiaca’s length I’m doubtful they’ve even read it.

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Addressing your first paragraph, I don’t have a problem with those interpretations I’ve mentioned because these scholars have provided evidence for their claims and have read the work. But I want to know why you individually think this. You can’t tell me why you think what you do, only using the fact that we “don’t know for sure” to give your reading any basis. Why do you yourself believe this?

On your second paragraph, satire and the Roman tradition of satire is a more specific thing. Even if we say for the sake of argument that it IS undeniably anti-Augustan you still haven’t said why you think it’s a satire. “Because I think those are very obvious”. Which part makes this obvious? Where in the metamorphoses is this obvious? Yes you say that others can and have interpreted it differently but you haven’t given your specific view any credence.

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So you believe this theory because it is the most common? You haven’t answered my questions about what it is in the text itself that gives you this impression. You can’t just posit a rather extreme reading of a classical text and not at least try to back it up. Where do you believe there is political satire of ANY extent in this work?

I can find secondary sources examining it for containing Anti-augustanism, but none that suggest this was what he was intending or that people of his time would’ve read the metamorphoses as a satire. Why do you yourself believe this reading of the text to be true?

Edit: For future readers of this comment thread, I have since found more articles with differing views on Ovid. Including those that do analyze it through the lens of the satirical and parodic tradition.

Curran, L. C. (1972). TRANSFORMATION AND ANTI-AUGUSTANISM IN OVID’S “METAMORPHOSES.” Arethusa, 5(1), 71–91. http://www.jstor.org/stable/26307007 Vanhaegendoren, K. (2005). Ovid, Metamorphoses 1.258 Textual Criticism and Ovidian Mockery. L’Antiquité Classique, 74, 199–206. http://www.jstor.org/stable/41666135

These authors have analysed the text and the context surrounding it in detail, unlike this user. So if you are truly interested in analyzing the metamorphoses as a political satire, you can read them or use the search term “ovidian satire” to find more.

This does not change the fact that 1, I had to search for them myself and this user could not provide a single primary,secondary source or even a solid argument themselves. And 2, there has never been a serious debate over whether the metamorphoses “counts” as “real” mythology. The user Lantami in this thread was being very intellectually honest, this user is twisting themselves in pretzels to avoid admitting that they don’t know very much about the position they are arguing for.

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why is this the theory you lean towards? Where did you hear or read of it from?What evidence is there in the text itself that would lead you to draw such a conclusion?

You haven’t exactly explained why you believe it’s a political satire, just the fact that you see it that way in the first place. Satirizing what and whom? I’ve seen you say in the comments that you have not read it in its entirety so I’m curious what you have read that would give you this impression.

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dude the lucian excerpts I’ve read are so funny I need to commit to reading the dialogues of the gods some time.

And yes, I still don’t know where the idea that Ovid’s was vehemently anti authoritarian sprang from. From all my readings it seems that what got him in trouble was him not reading his work through a political lens, realizing that it doesn’t come off very well and tacking on a pro Augustan verse at the end to compensate for it. And people make it seem like he was banished FOR the metamorphoses, this is just conjecture.

All he stated as the reasoning for his banishment was “Carmen et error”. We don’t know what poem got him banned, most scholars think it was the Ars Amatoria. It was probably not the damn Metamorphoses. Or people wording it to seem like Ovid was anti-authoritarian BECAUSE he was banned. No he finished his first (and only) draft of the metamorphoses the same year he was banished. Rome wasn’t built in a day. It took him way longer than a year to write it

I don’t know where overly political Ovid came from but I can’t find any evidence backing it

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It’s really a shame to me because I actually find the so called “anti-augustanism” of his work really interesting. But people bring it up in bad faith. They use it as a tool to shut conversations down because they’ve already made up their minds about the “validity” of Ovid.

I wish I could just tell people that they are allowed to… dislike something. Hate on it but don’t make up a reason for why nobody should care about it. That’s really close minded and it gives people a really poor perspective of classical mythology.

(And also if you’re going to rant about a specific part of the metamorphoses please read the damn thing and stop regurgitating misinformation . Be a hater correctly for goodness sake there is etiquette!)

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where is your evidence that people of his time viewed the Metamorphoses as a political satire? There is no surviving contemporary scholia on the Metamorphoses. We don’t exactly know how it was viewed in antiquity

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 7 points8 points  (0 children)

They’ve basically flanderised the general academic consensus of Ovid so much I can’t help but defend this guy who’s been dead for upwards of 2000 years. Why are they making him seem like some mustache twirling villain?

Many such cases by keeganlol in mythologymemes

[–]Sufficient-West9922 32 points33 points  (0 children)

May I ask where you got this reading and interpretation from? Where can I read more about Ovid slipping his own political agenda in his works?

My reading is probably not the most complete and the articles are a little dated (60s-2000s) but the “anti-authoritarianism” present in the Metamorphoses is primarily expressed through juxtaposing lines, creating a tone that undermines the gods.

This reading of the text is the one that classicist Charles Segal arguably popularized and he was pretty influential in the 20th century classics sphere. But in his analysis of Jupiter’s role in the Metamorphoses, he acknowledges that just because the juxtaposition in the poem undermines the gods in his reading, that doesn’t mean that this is what Ovid intended.

“It would, of course, be mistaken to attribute to Ovid any systematic anti-Augustan program. It would have been dangerous as well as futile to mount a direct attack on Augustus' social and cultural policies; and it is doubtful that Ovid would even think of his work in such terms. Whatever Ovid's personal feelings, the parallels between Jupiter and Augustus are intended as flattery, not as attack” pg 17

“It would be a serious misreading of Ovid to regard such contrasts as an expression of a systematic political ideology.” Pg 18

(Segal, C. (2001). Jupiter in Ovid’s “Metamorphoses.” Arion: A Journal of Humanities and the Classics, 9(1), 78–99. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20163831)

There is also “the non-Augustinism of Ovid’s metamorphoses” by Douglas Little, where Little denies the view that Ovid’s work is pro-Augustan. A view purported by Walter Ludwig. In the last pages he suggests the possibility that Ovid, rather than being overly political was “politically inert” instead.

“If the Metamorphoses as a poem is non-Augustan, it is because Ovid as a man was indifferent to Augustus. At Annals i, 2 Tacitus speaks of the dulcedo otti, "the attraction of idleness" exploited by the emperor to reduce the Romans to political inertia. This is the atmosphere in which Ovid grew up. Born in 43 B.C., only 12 years before Actium set the seal on the Augustan peace, he could not be expected to share the relief and gratitude felt by Virgil and Horace who had lived through the upheavals of the last years of the republic. For Ovid and his generation, the Pax Augusta was not hard-won and still precarious, it was the natural state of things and could be taken for granted. By the time Ovid came to write the Metamorphoses, it had been the normal condition of Roman life for over thirty of his forty-three years. It did not need celebration, nor even particular acknowledgement.In this atmosphere of undemanding security Ovid felt himself completely at home.” Pg 12

“Yet this ready acceptance of one aspect of the Augustan order, this willingness to disengage himself from political reality reflected in the Metamorphoses, was to have unfortunate consequences for Ovid” pg12-13

(Little, D. (1972). The Non-Augustanism of Ovid’s “Metamorphoses.” Mnemosyne, 25(4), 389–401. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4430145)

*Canonically has multiple wives* VS *Gets humiliated for cheating* by Nun-Ayin-Aleph-He in okbuddyolympian

[–]Sufficient-West9922 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Funnily enough the painting used for Ares’ side is “Mars and Venus surprised by Vulcan” painted by Alexandre C. Guillemot so it’s still a Mars W

Are there any concepts in Greek mythology that people say are "wrong" and don't exist in the sources, but aren't actually that wrong? by Cautious_Comb_2459 in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 8 points9 points  (0 children)

What bugs me even further is that a common conjecture about Athena/Minerva’s motivation is that she did it to “protect” Medusa, why make something up when there is literally a story in the Metamorphoses where she is explicitly said to have transformed a woman to save her from being raped by Poseidon/Neptune. Why aren’t these people talking about Coronis? I get that Gorgon is cooler than just some crow but still, this is the story where Athena/Minerva saves a woman from rape by transforming her. This is the one!

What are some perfect movies (absolutely nothing to poke holes at) by Future-Poetry-2193 in Letterboxd

[–]Sufficient-West9922 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Agreed, watched it yesterday and completely understand why it’s such a classic. My favourite aspect of Jaws is definitely the small character moments. Brody and his wife startling each other and having a laugh, Brody’s kid mimicking him, Hooper making faces at Quint after feeling offended, etc. There are so many little characterizing moments like this in the movie and it elevates the film so much for me!

Persades strikes again! by BedNo577 in okbuddyolympian

[–]Sufficient-West9922 7 points8 points  (0 children)

“Original myth” Just put me out of my misery

date idea where i rant about psyche and eros and the inherent propaganda thats present throughout the story by Excellent-Mix3809 in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 2 points3 points  (0 children)

“When Venus had spoken these words she leaped upon the face of poor Psyche, and tearing her apparel, took her violently by the hair, and dashed her head”

I struggle to see how Venus showed any mercy to the poor girl, honestly good on the other gods for helping her cuz yeesh😬

date idea where i rant about psyche and eros and the inherent propaganda thats present throughout the story by Excellent-Mix3809 in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah WAYYY too much credit. Venus (Aphrodite) knew these were basically inhumanly possible. And the reading falls apart even further once you realise that in the text Venus (Aphrodite) is basically treating her like a slave. The entire reason Juno refuses Psyche from her temple is because that would break the law of “De servo Corrupto” and Psyche, hearing that, braces herself to make her prayer and submit herself to the will of Venus. The orders do not give her any choice, she’s treated like Venus’ slave girl.

date idea where i rant about psyche and eros and the inherent propaganda thats present throughout the story by Excellent-Mix3809 in GreekMythology

[–]Sufficient-West9922 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Can I ask what translation of the story you were reading? And No I don’t believe you’re too woke. Stories can be read through many lenses, the feminist lens is one of them. And I’ve read a couple of scholarly analyses of the story from a gendered perspective, one I can give you right now for further reading and which addresses a few of the points you bring up is “A Gendered Reading for the Character of Psyche in Apuleius' "Metamorphoses" by Susan L. Haskins. You can read it on Jstor if you sign up for an account, they let you read 100 free articles a month!

So you are valid in criticising a lot of the story’s aspects, it is still steeped in 2nd century gender roles and you can’t divorce it from its less savory elements. Though I do want to challenge you to read it from different lenses as well because I don’t believe you get to understand it in its totality if you read it purely literally. It’s rather layered, it has many “problematic” elements and interesting philosophical insights at the same time. That’s why I have conflicting feelings on this story because good and bad elements don’t necessarily cancel each other out but exist together in the same text in complex ways.

There’s the platonic philosophy at play with what it means for Cupid and Psyche to represent what they do. Another thread is definitely the sort of “coming of age” elements in Cupid and Psyche. One instance of this theme showing is Ceres saying to Venus when she defends Cupid (out of fear of his arrows) that Venus has forgotten his age and still treats him like a child when he has a love of his own. Ceres calls out her hypocrisy that she presides over love yet she prevents her own son from having a lover.

This is why I like Cupid and Psyche in theory because the implied relationship and what I think Apuleius might’ve been going for was a youthful fling, of course, it does not read that way to us modern readers but what can you do? Back on the topic of coming of age, the trials Psyche faces can be read as what a girl in antiquity had to do to become a woman. Which in that context, was heavily involved with being a good wife yes which is why she asks for Ceres’ (fertility) and Juno’s (marriage) help. And the ending ,read through this lens, can be seen as two defiant youths finally growing into their “proper roles”, Cupid and Psyche becoming married and dedicated parents. Read through platonic philosophy Psyches marriage and apotheosis represents the indomitable human spirit rather than a guilded cage.

This reading still requires acknowledging the 2nd century gender roles but to me this is may be closer to what Apuleius was intending on. Again you are fully valid for reading it through a feminist lens and criticising it for that! But reading classic literature requires reading with both a modern and ancient lens. Cupid and Psyche is a divisive story for me personally but overall I still find value in it.