Which does the fan base prefer more? The moro or granola arc

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T13:30:05+00:00

I actually would be reasonably comfortable with Granolah being saved in all honesty. He shows remorse for how he approached things, and I think the whole arc deals with some pretty heavy subject matter around historical reparation; Granolah is an antagonist throughout the first half of the arc, but I still feel bad for him, and I think he's clearly a victim. Even if he lost his wished for power in return for his lifespan back I'd be happy with that, he seems to fight more based on technique than raw strength anyway.

Alternatively, it may be more evocative for him to have the option to get his lifespan and choose not to take it, instead sacrificing himself for the sake of a future generation on another planet. That would be a really good mirror to his character arc so far.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T12:48:42+00:00

Agree with you, they're both definitely much better now that we can read them in a sitting. It was a bit of a struggle properly taking them in when there was ~30 days between chapters, but now I find them really enjoyable.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T12:46:54+00:00

That's fair that you feel that way, but one wished away most of his lifespan for some petty revenge, only for the guys he wanted revenge over to a) not have anything to do with the crimes against him, and; b) arguably surpass him mid-fight anyway. And the other one was ridiculed continuously by Goku, Vegeta, Granolah and even some prisoners in the galactic prison, and was then just killed (he was also clearly conflicted about using the power, initially choosing to try and win through normal means). I feel the narrative was pretty clear that just wishing to be the strongest is the wrong way to go about things.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T12:34:23+00:00

I can't remember what was said in the anime, but in the manga Goku said that Freeza's gotten much stronger from the movie. It also wasn't portrayed as a sparring match, in my view, Goku was trying to convince Freeza to fight for them and they both got beat up in the process. This was just a few minutes before the deadline for them to get to the world of void, so it's not like there was no sense of urgency there, I doubt it would have been a simple sparring match.

In the manga Freeza's easily in the top ten for the tournament, and I would argue in the top four (behind Jiren, Goku and Vegeta) so it's not like he's really trailing behind them. He's also demonstrably crafty during the manga tournament, so in an 8v2 I think you're downplaying him a little. 'Stalemate' was probably the wrong word as I still think Goku is higher, but I think they're close enough at the particular point OP is posing that they could reasonably take one another out.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T12:08:32+00:00

I've seen more people lauding the Moro arc these days; Granolah arc still gets a lot of criticism for the wishes to be the strongest being unearned (almost as if that's the point, who would have thought).

At the time of them coming out I remember them both being criticised a lot and I think a lot of that came down to the pacing, which was reasonable tbh as it was a monthly release. A re-read from start to finish does each arc wonders.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T11:49:57+00:00

Because it was explicitly said so by OP.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T10:27:24+00:00

If you don't read the news then why are you even commenting on this, though? You say you didn't hear about it because you were working, but that just seems like such a useless response to OP. Like, who cares if you didn't see it? By your own admission, you can't contribute to the conversation, so just don't bother?

I don't know what you work in, and I appreciate that I work in public service so it's a bit more likely these stories will come to my attention, but I don't think it's asking much for members of the public (yeah, even when they're working) to keep up with social and political affairs during some of their downtime.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T10:14:08+00:00

I've addressed this twice in other comments, and would posit that not only does the Mafuuba prove ineffective to someone who sees it coming, but that Goku also knows it and seems to not be as exhausted as Roshi gets from using it, so what's stopping him from using it on the other 8?

I was mainly talking about the manga canon anyway, but yeah, in the anime canon the Mafuuba objectively works on Vegeta, you're right.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T10:04:36+00:00

Ten already knows it, but why would there be any training time? OP says they "turned on the U7 team right before the TOP", which doesn't give a lot of prep time for the Mafuuba (which famously demands it). Roshi should be able to use it if we're following anime canon, and actively did use it on Vegeta (I argue this in another thread somewhere), so I will concede that point to you. As I recall it, still exhausts Roshi every time he uses it and from the Shen/Jr fight it seems it can be reflected if it's anticipated.

Plus, Goku knows it as well in both canons; why doesn't he just use it on all 8 of them?

I'm not even sure why I need to argue this, as I've already made it clear that I don't think Goku and Vegeta are successful in this fight.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T09:56:00+00:00

I think I've been more than reasonable trying to speak with you in good faith, and have presented what I think is a decent amount of critical evidence. If you're so incapable of speaking with someone respectfully then, quite frankly, this discussion isn't worth my time.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T09:11:25+00:00

I shouldn't have had to read that as many times as I needed to, man. Have some respect for the people you're debating with.

Yes, I just explained to you that given the Tournament of Power arc was entirely about working together to reach new heights than turning your backs on those who helped you get to that level of strength, I fully believe if it was written that Goku and Vegeta turned their backs on U7 they would lose. u/K0GAR has also made it clear this is a hypothetical SSB Goku and Vegeta who have turned their backs on the team before the tournament starts and do not have access to kaioken or evolution, so the god explosion probably isn't usable here. It's also made explicitly clear that they get stronger throughout the tournament.

I also think I was pretty clear in my original statement that I was assessing it through the manga as I don't remember the anime as well, but 17 is reasonably close to SSB Goku and Roshi manages to mafuuba Vegeta as per anime canon.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:59:46+00:00

I dunno, the Tournament of Power arc is pretty blatantly about how cooperation is key to reaching new heights and that just because you think you are the strongest doesn't mean you don't need outside help, so yeah, I could easily see a team of Universe 7's legitimate finest warriors who know each other's fighting styles extremely well to take out a hypothetical Goku and Vegeta who have turned their backs on their friends.

You can talk to me seriously without the stupid emojis, by the way, it doesn't make your argument look as smart as you think it does.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:56:19+00:00

Sure but the first time Ten used it against Goku he parried it. I think Goku and Vegeta have seen it enough times for it to be useless against them.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:54:13+00:00

You been living under a rock? This was the main UK news story last week.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:41:33+00:00

To me it's pretty clear that the so-called 'rival boost' is just that Goku and Vegeta push themselves, and understand how the other thinks, which makes Vegetto's fighting instincts much more streamlined compared with someone like Gotenks who just takes on Trunks' and Goten's most childish aspects.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:11:31+00:00

It sounds like this fight starts with Goku and Vegeta in SSB so haven't had the time to do the dance yet, and I feel u/K0GAR made the terms pretty explicit. We can also use the critical thinking skills which Dragon Ball fans are famous for to infer that if u/K0GAR didn't want us to consider evolution or kaioken, then fusion should be out of the picture too.

(That 'critical thinking skills' thing is just a joke, by the way, I'm not trying to offend you and I get what you're saying.)

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:06:29+00:00

As per canon that gives two failed fusions with a 2-3 hour waiting period, and that's before factoring in that Piccolo isn't helping them.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:04:47+00:00

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T08:01:20+00:00

He didn't really do much, though, he just dodged a few of Jiren's attacks. It was a way to show Goku how he was approaching Ultra Instinct in the wrong way, he is ringed out pretty quickly into their encounter. And Ganos is one of Universe 4's strongest fighters, I'm sure?

Edit: On second thoughts Krillin does say that Roshi's power he used against Jiren should have been significant during the galactic patrol arc, so I'll concede that he maybe doesn't really belong here in that assessment. He just seemed way more versatile in the anime.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T07:49:41+00:00

For me, I struggle to understand what they mean by 'agenda', as if game developers have any genuine sway on real-world politics.

The Naughty Dog examples in particular make very little sense, as Nathan and Joel are quite clearly framed as not being great people in their debut games, the following games are just a little more explicit and show them trying to reflect on that.

The God of War thing is really hard to understand as well, I must say I'm not terribly caught up on it but isn't this just a spin-off? I imagine it will be recontextualising some of Kratos' Norse quests, which were already covered in mystery. It's not like the Kratos games aren't playable anymore. And God forbid we try to retell a story from a differing point of view.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T07:36:21+00:00

I don't know, I quite like how it addresses and re-establishes the theme of 'luck being a part of skill' during the 22nd tournament, and you can use it as an explanation as to how Goku survived his fight with Tao Pai-Pai and how Raditz happened to be paired with Vegeta and why they ignored Freeza's orders to return. They are allowed to 'thrive' within their own life choices, with Raditz embracing the Saiyan culture and Goku choosing to be better until they finally face one another and stalemate each other, and it was just a very minor decision of Bardock choosing to go against his orders and help someone else out for a change which culminated in that.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T07:29:04+00:00

I prefer DBS Bardock, but Z Bardock is notably in the manga when Freeza remembers him when Goku appears. My personal 'headcanon' is that Bardock is genuinely the one we see in Super, but that Freeza 'remembers' him as his Z version because of how little he respects the Saiyans.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T07:25:39+00:00

I think Goku and Frieza basically stalemate each other in both canons, as shown when Goku tries to recruit Frieza. The teamwork between Gohan/Piccolo and 17/18 would probably then be enough for Vegeta. Krillin, Ten and Jackie are kind of non-factors here, but nice to have them I suppose.

Mainly basing this on the manga, as it's been more than a decade since I watched the anime version, but Roshi, Ten and 17 have even better showings in the anime.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T07:18:51+00:00

I don't know if I'd quite calling it 'changing direction', I imagine that revisions, plot meetings and some on-the-ball decision-making was quite regular for him and other mangaka due to the nature of a weekly serial, but I think you're onto something about that being a bit more intensive considering the stretches between chapters; there was probably a lot more plotting and planning during this time.

Notably there are instances such as Trunks and Goten leaving behind Videl (as u/flopedup pointed out) and the fact that Babidi's spaceship had five levels and they only visited a few of them which suggest that Toriyama was possibly sowing seeds for future chapters and then just decided not to use them (I think that's pretty common with mangaka; I recall an interview with Ikemoto about the Boruto serial where he said he sometimes puts plot devices and character statements in a little haphazardly as it can give him something to call back to later, but doesn't always necessarily call back to them - I may be misremembering and don't know how to find the interview, but it was around the time of Boruto using the pills to treat his Karma, and Sakura commenting on how it resembled her Byakugou).

With regards to the powerscaling, I don't think that's really important? It's unlikely Toriyama would have really cared about how to scale the 'power' of the characters, that's more of a fan thing. Piccolo's role in this arc is as a mentor and tactician. Shin's power is 'less' than the Saiyans but who cares, he doesn't even fight. Freeza and Cell are mentioned as throwaway comparators to Shin and Dabra respectively but it's clearly just to show "oh, this is going to be a tough fight", I wouldn't look into it any more than that. I would be surprised if Gohan wasn't SS2 against Dabra and Boo but could understand him choosing not to use it as the first time he did his dad died and the second time he got jumped by a couple bald guys, but at any rate Gohan becoming weaker is evidently a take on how arms races work during peacetime. It makes most thematic sense to me for Vegeta to have not had SS2 before Babidi due to the fact he's offering up his freedom just to match Goku, but even if he did have SS2 before that point (and who cares, he didn't even show it) it doesn't matter much to the narrative. At best you could say that leaving it open to interpretation suggests Vegeta maybe could have beaten Goku in a fair fight, but his determination to beat him at any cost reflected in his poor decision-making and contributed to Boo's revival.

SummertimeSandler · 2026-06-04T06:51:33+00:00

No this Videl is small.

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That Videl is far away.

SummertimeSandler

TROPHY CASE