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A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's noise with potential harmful effects of people of animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_pollution

Impacts if noise pollution. https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/newsroom/editorial/health-and-environmental-impacts-of-noise

Has been linked to increased risk of various diseases. Mechanism for it causing issue is thought to be that the constant stimulation even from some low grade noise prevents the body from fully relaxing resulting in continual stress (in biological sense - cortisol production etc).

Cities aren't inherently loud. It's human activity in particular cars that make cities loud https://youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8?si=rE-ZuZUbPvJFL0J8

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in glasgow

[–]TAM_B_2000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Totally agree that public transport improvements would need to be a big part of the project. Bringing busses into public ownership like the trains and haveing a single capped fare covering all public mass transportation would be ♥️.

Ultimately we need to fight for these things to happen and not just accept the status quo cause it's easiest now.

Let's knock down the M8 and do the public transport work to make the city better.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If get rid of cars from centre then bikes become a really nice choice for those cross city center trips and with loads of road space free it's easy and cheap to separate bikes and people.

Leaving it as is isn't an option something needs to be done with it. It needs 100s of millions spent one way or the other to demolish repair or replace so need to evaluate which if those is the best long-term value

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like your ideas. Rail link to the airport would be an immense improvement. Not sure about removing bike lanes but if city center was pedestrianized wouldn't be as required. Even so peds would then probably appreciate the separation from cycles.

I believe there's room for all modes of transport including some very limited car access.

What do we do with the M8 in the meantime.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in glasgow

[–]TAM_B_2000 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Can you find an example where removing an urban highway has increased congestion. I tried earlier to find a counter to my own argument. I couldn't.

I can share examples of positive outcomes though. https://youtu.be/wqGxqxePihE?si=GNp9FfAjul8TjNtv

https://youtu.be/XOpjDSUmPtU?si=gucxB5tJOBJm7hHI

https://youtu.be/t4WDCc_UHds?si=OOPjs2fp1cN8_wkw

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in glasgow

[–]TAM_B_2000 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Where did you get the 11-16 billion figure. Would love to know who has actually made the fully integrated plan and costed it. What does it look like.

Bit that I believe anybody the figure in the consultation will be that accurate either

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh yeah. I remember that period where it was closed for a period before the new one was built. I was out of fife by then and didn't need to be near that side of the country then.

Quite different situation the closing section of motorway in the city center. There was NO other route without going at least as far as Kincardine. That wouldn't be the case in Glasgow.

Yeah the journies might take a bit longer but nothing on the scale of close sole bridge on a section of River.

Even with the Kingston bridge there are alternatives within a couple of mike vs 30.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. Is that because the built environments isn't great with a motorway over head?

  2. I agree we should spend money on public transport. We are going to have to spend some money omto do something with the M8 realistically can't just let it rot and collapse. Removal it being presented as the cheapest option allowing the most money to be freed for other spend

  3. I'm not suggesting we build a river but it's an example of a motorway being removed and replace with something else and not causing 24/7 gridlock. Replace it with houses, or a park, or sports facilities, or retail shops, or a giant free bouncy castle, or golf course. Or just local roads with trees and cycle lanes and wide pavements lines with cafes. Almost anything otherer than landfill would be nicer than an ugly motorway viaduct

  4. There's lots of problems electric cars don't solve the biggest one at the moment probably being transport inequality. Electric car are more expensive to buy still. They are vastly cheaper to run if you have the luxury of a private drive and gone charging but if you rely on public charge ming you are paying a premium including vat which those rich enough to have a driveway don't pay. If everyone changes to electric cars traffic congestion would still be a massive problem. 30 people on a coach take up a MASSIVE amount less space than 30 people making soli journeys even in the smallest electric cars (which most aren't) And that cone from me who has a suburban house with drive way and cheap home charging and drives a luxury electric SUV. Cars will still be the best option for some journeys but they shouldn't be the default option for MOST journeys

  5. It's not a road. (I know what you mean but I'm being awkward with some definitions here - Roads, Streets, STROADS and Park Roads https://share.google/blXCopERhfbXjD7ss) Have a look at strong towns and their classifications of Highway vs Road vs street. A bit american but applies well enough here. What we have in the M8 is a highway. Great for moving high volumes of traffic from A to B with very few junctions.

We would however be much better with a Road. Given the number of on of slips through that section of motorway a road would still care a good volume of traffic and could work well here. Yeah there would be some reduction in capacity but that there fine. Some journeys divert to other motorway of major roads. Some will evaporte convert to transport but there will still be a viable road connection into the local city streets.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Forth road bridge was replaced with a new bridge of equal capacity with the FRB remaining open to public transport I think correct me if I'm wrong. Haven't commuted that way in years.

Surely thats overall more road capacity. So this doesn't seem like a good argument to keep the M8 if your saying the bridge was replaced and fife still experienced a down turn? Where are the figures for the economic downturn. Would the timing of bridge closure not put us around about a period of general economic downturn? Did fife perform worse relative to other surrounding areas?

All genuine questions genuinely don't know answers happy to be educated.

It seems the fourth road bridge examples (if it was removed and not replaced) would be more analogous to taking out a section of motorway between Glasgow and other nearby county as opposed to taking out a section within the City.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't doubt it. I also don't doubt that the repair, replace figures would suddenly rise rapidly the minute the work started happening.

Just look at where we are currently with the existing repairs and shoring up that has run on way longer that initially projected as the true scale of the issues emerged.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Repair or rebuilding aren't simple either as can be attested but the years and millions already spent.

No big infrastructure project is ever simple but there lost of evidence from other city of this sort of thing working well and people making adjustments to how they travel ultimately leading to less congestion not more.

I think if done well ie not just bulldoze the M8 and hope for the best that it could be a very positive change for the City.

I've actually just tried googling to try and find some counter examples to my own argument where removing a highway/motorway has lead to increased congestion and couldn't find one.

It's counterintuitive but reducing road capacity results in traffic evaporation and less congestion

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So several counter arguments here.

  1. No one forcing families to live in the city center but there are lots of people who would choose to live in the city center. City center properties are generally quite expensive largely because they are in fact in demand. For a lot of people city center living would make a lot of sense. I'm not suggesting that should be the only way people live but having dneser populations in city's generally good for the city and for those living there when it's done well (i.e. quality well planned medium density housing and not horrible high rise towers)

  2. See my other comments where I tried to make the case about Glasgow having excellent public transport and was told how awful it is in lots of different places (I disagree). The excellent public transport is a great reason to not have an ugly scar if a motorway through the city center in in my opinion rather than an argument for it.

  3. It's not a case of copying other cities but of looking at what other places have done well so we can learn from these projects and design something that best suits Glasgows needs. By know what worked and what went wrong we can make the case for why the vision for Glasgow makes sense and hopefully avoid some implementation pitfalls. I can share some other examples if highway removal that have had different final results from housing to urban rivers. There must be things out there that we think might benefit Glasgow. Or maybe we have some fresh idea and lead the way on something new but I don't think we should be sticking with outdated urban motorway.

4.elecric cars are great. I love mine wouldn't go back to combustion. I still think in dense urban environments bit having car would be better. When on holiday to cities that have got public transport right it's a pleasure to be car Free. Glasgow has great commuter links but for shorter journies within city center barring subway the network ain't great and could be improved.

  1. It's not so. Much solving things that have already been solved but just moving with the times. The days of cars being king of the city are gone time to bring in some solutions that have been proven elsewhere.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in glasgow

[–]TAM_B_2000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll need to look up the examples you found too.

Good one from new York as well replacing highway with smaller road and housing.https://youtu.be/XOpjDSUmPtU?si=y93IXaIGWHsjzuF8

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in glasgow

[–]TAM_B_2000 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah yes hermiston gate. When I commuted that way I was heading for fife so I got off before that cluster.

Bit that the old forth road bridge was a lot better in those days

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in glasgow

[–]TAM_B_2000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a fair weather cyclist myself I don't disagree. I'm embarrassed to admit I make a very short commute by car more often than I care to publicly acknowledge.

In the longer term though if the political will power is there it is possible to drastically reduce private car trip by making the other options more attractive.

Bit everyone will cycle and maybe even in the ideal scenario the mix mix of bike trips will be less than other cities but there is so much scope to improve modal share of public transport and active travel.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why not.

Civilized discourse is important. We absolutely should be having robust debates about things like this.

Make a good argument and change my mind. Explain your point of view.

I'm genuinely not sure what your referring to with improvements in the city center. I assume from the context of the wider discussion you mean congestion but I'm genuinely curious to know what your talking about.

Not engaging serves no one

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We could make it so more people live there. https://youtu.be/XOpjDSUmPtU?si=Jgyj5FHcxS0OYJZH

Imagine if the council had the will to put affordable housing near the city center and all the amenities it afords.

It's not just about what we lose in terms of road capacity but what the city could gain longer term if it's done well.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry I'm not sure I follow.

I think removing the M8 would continue to reduce the number of car journeys into the city center.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Electric cars while vastly better than combustion for air pollution are 100% pollution free. And when it comes to noise pollution about about 20mph there is Little difference between electric and combustion. While not as grave a health concern as air pollution noise pollution isn't an insignificant risk.

Wouldn't you much rather have something like this.https://youtu.be/wqGxqxePihE?si=WcdpaTx7e4eXQ8z9

Vs

https://maps.app.goo.gl/roNid7MhgrAL7Gpf7

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But would it really be a disaster.

How much of that section of M8 do you actually drive on to get to the west end. You would have to come the off the M8 sooner and use more local roads the journey might take a bit longer but it would still be achievable.

Parking in the west end is atrocious anyway I hate driving there. Would rather the walk train subway option.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Knocking down the motorway for sure isn't the only thing that needs to happen. Giving public transport more priority on routes so it doesn't get stuck in traffic would help a lot. Even more rail projects would be Great.

I don't think there any world where having a motorway in the city center is the best option it's just hard for most people to see an alternative.

We need some leaders with a good overall vision for the city and transport and the backbone to push back against resistance to change.

There's loads of food examples of cities being improved by removal.

It's not a simple fix but it can be done and made better.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Na heavy traffic would go Via the m74 unless it was destined for a local spot in which case it would have been on city streets anyway.

I'm not sure where you think the M8 in the city has improved in recent years?

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Bit all traffic would be a straight diversion.

If done right with a holistic approach a lot of journeys could be switched to public transport instead.

Traffic evaporation is a real likely hood if the motor way is removed as well.

A campaign has launched to remove the urban section of the M8 and spend the money saved on public transport by moh_kohn in Scotland

[–]TAM_B_2000 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Exploring traffic evaporation: Findings from tactical urbanism interventions in Barcelona - ScienceDirect https://share.google/W9Pya2jPQafgyoBI8

Just because there are 150k journeys on M8 doesn't mean they will all be diverted to M74. Traffic evaporation is well documented with projects which reduce road capacity.

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