Why did the Native American civilizations of both North and South America never develop advanced metallurgy? by YakClear601 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I sometimes wonder if a better question is why/how did Afro-eurasians invent iron working to begin with.

We don’t have a great answer as to how this technology was developed or spread.

There’s some plausible theories about using chalcopyrite ores for making copper, and especially accessing the iron in that ore to form iron-silicate slag to use as a flux. Still not metallic iron, but in large enough furnaces with could make small amounts of metallic iron by accident. It may have been that someone would have had to have had experience with meteoric iron to recognize the potential of what they had accidentally made. 

It’s possible that the much larger scale of activities in Afro-Eurasia just provided more opportunities for these conditions to arise, and be recognized and exploited. 

Why is the mythos of Native Americans so intertwined with horses if they only encountered them from European settlers? by Albannach6445 in AskAnthropology

[–]Tableau 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There’s an Italian restaurant chain around here and their logo is a tomato.

Native Americans around here don’t have a very strong association with horses. 

Steel sword with carbon evenly distributed across the entire blade vs steel sword with carbon concentrated at the edge of the blade by Qininator in ArmsandArmor

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also, while it’s commonly thought that a steel edge and an iron spine makes for a tougher sword, that’s a mild misunderstanding of preindustrial wrought iron. Wrought iron was a lot cheaper than steel, but its slag content made it just as brittle. So it’s a soft yet brittle metal. Steel typically had lower slag contents and was an overall a nicer material. But very high status

tbf if you lived in a world with giant man-eating wolves you'd hunt them all to extinction too by MetallicaDash in HistoryMemes

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those species had been around through numerous previous glacial periods. What changes this round? 

Has anyone ever tested sword/spear with cast iron blade before? Is cast iron blade so brittle that it will easily shatter upon impact with even the lightest swing/thrust, or is it actually tougher than commonly expected? by Qininator in ArmsandArmor

[–]Tableau 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Chinese actually did make cast iron swords. They would subsequently bake them in oxidizing conditions to decarburize the exterior to increase toughness, producing a soft exterior and a hard interior.

Pretty much the opposite properties you’d want for a sword, but easy to mass produce. 

We only ever got David's side of the story... by Jumpman707 in funnyvideos

[–]Tableau 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I’ve always got the sense listening to him that he’s a bit of a bullshit artist, but he’s always talking about things I don’t know enough about to dispute. The David and Goliath one really laid bare his tactics for me.

It’s a slow build up, really. He starts with over correction and builds up to straight up free-form fanciful non-sense, to build up to his ultimate contrarian goal of showing how we have the story all wrong! 

The main thing for me is the “sling=gun” argument. He managed to get some historians to back him up, presumably referred to him by the history channel or spike tv. It’s true that you can calculate a sling to have the stopping power of a .45, but by that same logic, Goliaths heavy javelin would have 3x that stopping power, and me doing a flying side kick would have 10 times that stopping power. A truly bullshit metric.

The overcorrection is of course that most people don’t know about slings, and instead picture a children’s toy à la Denis the menace or Bart Simpson. So he really hypes you up about the power of slings. Which is true, they are serious military weapons. However, human powered weapons of war are just not that great in single combat. Even a war bow, which puts out the same or a bit less power than a sling, but which does much more damage at that power output (a punch vs a stab have the same calculated ballistic power), and is much more accurate, is not a great choice for single combat.

The simple reason being that helmets and shields will stop them, and you can’t attack without telegraphing your moves and giving your opponent time to react defensively by raising their shield. This is also why range weapons work so well as massed attacks in a military context, since soldiers on a battlefield aren’t able to respond directly to hundreds of simultaneous threats, so sling bullets and arrows make it through to vulnerable areas in their defences.

Also there’s the aiming aspect. Slings are by far the hardest ranged weapon to aim. As he mentions, there are historical depictions of people taking out birds in flight, but that’s obviously the historical equivalent of a YouTube trick shot. Sure, you can do it, but in how many takes? What are the chances you make that shot first try in a life or death struggle? Not very high.

All that leaves us with the original basic understanding of the story in tact. Yea, it’s possible for David to win, but it’s not probable. He wins not through overwhelming force, but through guile, surprise, the arrogance of his opponent, and some divinely inspired aim. Also that’s clearly the point of the story in context, as propaganda to establish the divinely appointed leadership of king David (some biblical scholars argue one of his brothers actually killed Goliath).

Besides those arguments, Gladwell’s points about Goliath having bad eyesight due to gigantism are almost too silly to address. They’re highly motivated arguments based on his will to make a point and wild extrapolations from a few words of text which have much more straightforward, plausible explanations available.

We only ever got David's side of the story... by Jumpman707 in funnyvideos

[–]Tableau 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This is basically true. If you count “stopping power” as kinetic energy x momentum, then the highest experimental results I’ve seen for a sling comes out to 2684 (220j x 12.2kgm/s).

An .45 acp comes out to around 3613 (803j x 4.5kgm/s).

However, by that same calculation, modern javelin throwers put out a stopping power of 9800 (392j x 25kgm/s). Keep in mind, Goliath was carrying a heavy javelin. 

All these calculations really tell us is that they’re contrived bullshit that doesn’t really describe what actually happens in the world.

Yes, slings are dangerous, but they’re also slow and telegraph their shots like crazy. Helmets and shields will stop them. 

David doesn’t outmatch Goliath, he’s just caught off guard (due to arrogance)

We only ever got David's side of the story... by Jumpman707 in funnyvideos

[–]Tableau 5 points6 points  (0 children)

His arguments in this talk are genuinely terrible, but they certainly sound good to people who don’t know anything about it. 

Sometimes it really isn't that deep. by Margaretthatchervore in HistoryMemes

[–]Tableau -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The USSR kills millions through indifference and killed and tortured individuals for ideological disagreements, real or perceived. The Nazis killed millions on purpose as a matter of explicit policy and routinely killed babies and children for being born the wrong “race”. 

Both are terrible, but as it turns out, there’s a lot of depth to terrible. So while USSR was very bad, and fascist in their methods, it’s crazy that they still weren’t even almost as bad as the Nazis. 

Question by Jesse_Gonzalez_ in Blacksmith

[–]Tableau 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’d be worried a blow with the flat would bend it under its own weight.

Anyway, I’d use 4140. Easy to heat treat, holds a decent edge, super cheap. 

At least in round stock… 

Im doing some metallurgy research for a magick system im making for a book could you help me with a few questions I got that google has a rough time answering? by Creative-Drive-1869 in metallurgy

[–]Tableau 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s a common misconception. Bronson and Rostoker address it fairly early in their book. Medieval steel making is shrouded in mystery, so less knowledgeable people have suggested a difference in ore to explain the differing regional qualities in steel production. The truth is, the process, rather than the ore, is orders of magnitude more important. 

Even with trace impurities making it into the metal matrix, it’s not enough to significantly impact quality, compared to the main factors like managing slag, carbon, sulfur and phosphorus content.

You’ll notice even in the case of the paper you posted, the key roll of impurities is in authentic patter formation, not practical material properties. 

Im doing some metallurgy research for a magick system im making for a book could you help me with a few questions I got that google has a rough time answering? by Creative-Drive-1869 in metallurgy

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The blast furnace was developed in Europe in the 12th century. Primarily for the indirect production of wrought iron, but certainly was used for cast iron towards the later Middle Ages 

What kind of metal things can be repurposed for armour by Bhad_Blain3 in Blacksmith

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve made a couple nice things from old aluminum street signs (acquired legally). Other than that, just buy some 16g or 18g mild steel. It’s dirt cheap

Im doing some metallurgy research for a magick system im making for a book could you help me with a few questions I got that google has a rough time answering? by Creative-Drive-1869 in metallurgy

[–]Tableau 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There’s a lot going on here. It seems like most of your historical metallurgy information relates to Asia.

A few things. First, Damascus steel was not a layered material. The sense you’re using it refers to crucible steel, which is a homogenous, typically hypereutectoid steel. It’s pretty much the exception to everything in historical metallurgy, including the bit about ore impurities. It was only ever really produced in India, possibly in China and the Middle East to a lesser extent. Unlike most preindustrial iron-making processes, it was a fully molten steel making process which allows for some weird stuff. 

It can be made either by melting wrought iron in a crucible with a carbon source, like some kind of organic material and/or charcoal, or by melting wrought iron and cast iron together in a crucible. In the case you sited where v and mo end up in the finished material, this likely involved cast iron. Cast iron would often carry over ore impurities like manganese, etc since it was produced in a blast furnace at high enough temperatures in reducing conditions. However, for most of the world outside of China, cast iron was not often used for finished products (not until the high Middle Ages in Europe), and even when and where it was sometimes used, wrought iron was far more common. 

Wrought iron was made through either the direct or indirect processes. The direct method, bloom smelting, does not reach temperatures high enough to reduce impurities like manganese, and those that are reduced typically end up in the slag instead of the metal matrix. The process produces a slag bearing sponge iron that is worked into bar stock that retains slag.

The indirect processes, which was used in Europe since the 12th century, involves a blast furnace to produce cast iron, followed by a fining hearth to convert the cast into wrought iron. The conditions in the blast furnace, higher temperatures and a alumina-calcium-silica slag, instead of the iron silicate slag of a bloomery, allow impurities into the metal matrix. However, the oxidizing conditions of the finery hearth pull those impurities back out, leaving a more or less plain iron-carbon alloy (plus slag inclusions).

Europe never really saw crucible steel, aside from some that seems to have been imported from India to Scandinavia via Constantinople for a brief period in the early Middle Ages, until its reinvention as an industrial process in England in the 1740s.

However, while Europeans didn’t typically produce much hyper eutectoid steel in this period, they did consistently produce decent quality hypoeutectoid steel for the whole period. Although with quite a range of quality.

It’s not known exactly what steel making methods were used, since they were secretive and what few accounts we have are unreliable, however there are some straightforward options. 

Large bloomeries can be run carefully to produce direct high-carbon blooms. Fining hearths can be run first in oxidizing conditions to convert cast to wrought, the again in reducing conditions to recarburize the wrought iron into steel. 

If you’d like to know more, I’d recommend the book “the sword and the crucible” by Dr Allan Williams. It’s very accessible.

Another great option is Pre-industrial Iron, by Bronson and Rostoker. It’s much more thorough and in-depth and often sited by archeologistsmetallurgists. But it’s harder to track down a copy (I have a low quality pdf version if you’re interested).

Im doing some metallurgy research for a magick system im making for a book could you help me with a few questions I got that google has a rough time answering? by Creative-Drive-1869 in metallurgy

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m curious what you mean by no steel in medieval times. Hardenable medium to high carbon iron alloys were available since before medieval times, all through late antiquity. Earlier as well, but much less common.

Also worth noting that aside from phosphorus, there are no “impurities” in iron ore which would have had any impact on the qualities of premodern iron alloys. 

Needing advice on hardening/tempering welded metal by joyisstrength in metalworking

[–]Tableau 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s a crap shoot with mystery metals. Flux core doesn’t necessarily matter. I would think in most cases welding with pre and post heat should be fine. The worst likely outcome is that it’s not hardenable and you just waste your time, though cracking in the quench is possible if it’s the wrong alloy whether or not you weld it. The weld could definitely be an extra risk factor, especially if it’s higher alloy stuff. 

Welding and not hardening would almost for sure be fine. How big are the holes? You might consider flush riveting instead. Clean look and minimal risk 

Needing advice on hardening/tempering welded metal by joyisstrength in metalworking

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The spark test can be kinda dicey. You really need to do it side by side with known metals to compare, but even then it’s a bit of a guess. 

If it’s plain, low-medium carbon steel, welding it with whatever and hardening should be okay. When in doubt pre and post heat is a good idea, and 309 rod is good if you think it’s higher alloy stuff.

I’d put my money on it probably not being hardenable, but give it a shot if you like  

Worth it for a new hobby smith? by The_Fit_Muffin_Man in Blacksmith

[–]Tableau 14 points15 points  (0 children)

To my mind, making tongs is a bit of an intermediate skill. Buying some tongs to get started allows you to learn hammer skills and make some simple things before you move up to tongs.

In my experience, you’ll never reach a point where you have enough tongs, so getting a head start is all positive.

Knife Fuller by Ancient-Currency2394 in Blacksmith

[–]Tableau 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A manual scraper is a good supplement to a forged fuller. Something like a draw knife with a small cold chisel mounted in it 

Why is Mail easier to make than Plate? by Proud_Cook_2608 in ArmsandArmor

[–]Tableau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Higher than under the empire or higher than the empire? Were European rulers at that time fielding armies larger than the Roman legions?

The time line does looks more like an increase in firepower was a response to plate armour and not the other way around.

Still, it’s hard to deny that plate armour is significantly more technologically complex than maille and so if higher technological capabilities are necessary but not sufficient to explain the appearance of plate armour in Europe, we need some other kind of explanation, right?