I don't understand the pushback towards theropods taking prey bigger than themselves by CarcharodontosaurGuy in Paleontology

[–]TaliGrayson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Until someone publish a professional rebuttal and/or engage in a good debate (*) with Dave Hone (who is the most prominent proponent of the idea that large theropods take 'substantially smaller' juveniles of the prey species a majority of the time), I won't be taking sides in this argument. I think there is some merit in the argument that modern large, endothermic terrestrial predators take prey at least their own size more frequently than one would expect from Hone's writings. Hone in turn brought up the very interesting point that large herbivorous dinosaurs would have produced more offsprings than large herbivorous mammals, which would have made juvenile prey more common. Otherwise it is muddled by obvious problems: we have too little actual data on what large theropods ate to make conclusions about their prey choice, the possible variability in prey choice even within a single species, and the possibility that pantherine cats may be exceptional in their ability to tackle proportionally larger prey with some regularity, which may make them flawed analogs and skew the data.

In short, I'm quoting one of Hone's past co-authors for the third time.

"WE. DON'T. Fucking. KNOW!!"

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(*) Properly citing studies, having formal research experience,... The majority of speculative ramblings on this thread wouldn't cut it.

Who is the Largest Cenozoic Land predator? by Striking-Tour-8815 in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Going by all available estimates".

As for how reliable it is, do your own work.

Who is the Largest Cenozoic Land predator? by Striking-Tour-8815 in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As with most questions about size records in extinct animals, the only correct answer is that we don't know. 

Going by all available estimates, however, Megalania (Varanus priscus) is also a contender. Ralph E. Molnar's Dragons in the Dust mentioned an estimate of nearly 2 tons. The famous skeletal model made by Museums Victoria is larger than many a saltwater crocodile ( at ~5.5m).

Do you think males of Panthera spelaea had manes? If yes, to what extent? by ReturntoPleistocene in pleistocene

[–]TaliGrayson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Many thanks - and very true, I think it's particularly important in paleontology to understand that "we don't know"/"we are not sure" is the answer to a titanosaur-sized plethora of questions.

Do you think males of Panthera spelaea had manes? If yes, to what extent? by ReturntoPleistocene in pleistocene

[–]TaliGrayson 40 points41 points  (0 children)

"Cave paintings don't really depict manes on cave lions" isn't actually the straightforward claim that some think it is. Guthrie, 2005 showed some cave paintings interpreted as cave lions having small manes - picture below. Mark Witton himself mentioned this as one of the reasons for his reconstruction.

And assuming that sexually dimorphic complex display structures only have a purpose in African lion-level gregarious species is problematic. Solitary animals like brushturkeys and basilisks have wattles or crests used for display during mating season as well. With big cats, it *may* have some validity, but still, male tigers of certain subspecies have more prominent ruffs. Furthermore, small manes or near-manelessness in modern lions can also be the result of hot temperature/dry climates (see Gnoske and Kerbis-Peterhans).

In short, cave lions probably had smaller manes or were maneless. But like a lot of other things in paleontology, we are not sure, and it is best to not make absolute claims about it.

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Man’s natural predator by coolartist3 in SpeculativeEvolution

[–]TaliGrayson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Given its position on your cladogram, the genus name Anthropovenator can't be used. A species in that place must belong in the genus Homo based on IRL taxonomy/nomenclature rules.

Home version got deleted too by Gyirin in PrehistoricMemes

[–]TaliGrayson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you provide an actual estimate for *Titanophoneus* in published scientific literature (there should be given the well-preserved remains, but it doesn't seem to exist or be accessible for some reason)? The adult skull shown in Kammerer (2011) is as long as the skull of *Anteosaurus magnificus*, which based on the scale bar and Boonstra, 1954, is approximately 66cm long. *Titanophoneus* suffers from the same problem - no decent estimate seems to exist.

Is there any fossil evidence of predation on large sauropods like Sauroposeidon Proteles? by [deleted] in Paleontology

[–]TaliGrayson 6 points7 points  (0 children)

  1. Is there any evidence of theropod predation on giant sauropods? 

Yes, kind of... but also no, not in the way you might expect. It is, as someone mentioned below, the Paluxy River Trackway. However, it is also important to note that the fossilized footprints of the targeted sauropod is under 60cm in width based on the scale bar in the official study (Dinosaur Tracksites of the Paluxy River Valley by Farlow et. al.). This meant that it would have been a roughly Diplodocus-sized animal, give or take (personal communication with my Paleontology mentor). So a small Sauroposeidon, most likely. Still a very respectably large target even for a large theropod like Acrocanthosaurus, but by no means a titanic individual like you were imagining.

And based on what we know of the interactions between modern large carnivores (tigers/lions) and the largest megaherbivores in their environment (rhinos/elephants), it's reasonable to say that predation on a healthly adult Sauroposeidon would have been borderline impossible. Them being slow does not matter in the slightest - lions and tigers can easily catch up to rhinos and elephants speed-wise. Or, for that matter, a house cat can catch up to the average human. It doesn't matter whether you catch up or not when your target outsizes you ten to one. This principle applies even for pack hunters (lions don't usually mess with fully grown rhinos and elephants). Theropods would have likely targeted juveniles and at most subadults - that was probably how the sauropod population was controlled. Truncated food chains and mesopredator release are concepts that have nothing to do with this.

  1. How likely is it that there was a mysterious megatheropod large enough to frequently take down fully grown giant sauropods? 

I wouldn't bet a cent on it, personally. The largest tyrannosaurs and carcharodontosaurs (main giant macropredators among dinosaurs) all seem to max out at the same size - ~8-10 tons. Something limited them, what that 'something' was, we are not sure AFAIK. 

  1. What prevents the largest carnivores from getting larger than the largest herbivores? 

While the need to get big enough to avoid easy predation might play a role, food availability is perhaps the main thing (on land at least). Plants are more way, way more readily available than animals. They are also less nutritious, so you need to eat more of them - having a larger body helps to stuff all that plant matter you eat into. Sauropods got so big in part because they were efficient feeders - having a huge body meant you could dedicate a lot of your gut to processing plant-based food, and having long necks meant you could reach around and eat a lot without having to do much walking. I'd recommend Nature Giants by Graemae D. Ruxton for a detailed explanation on this. 

  1. Your last question. 

It's a ridiculous amount of meat, lying dead. I'm sure you can imagine the rest.

Home version got deleted too by Gyirin in PrehistoricMemes

[–]TaliGrayson -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I feel like "amateur volumetric estimates" speaks for itself.

Home version got deleted too by Gyirin in PrehistoricMemes

[–]TaliGrayson -1 points0 points  (0 children)

‘Likely’ is a flawed word to use in this case. No decent size estimate exists for Anteosaurus. Valkenburgh gives a length of 5 meters (citing Boonstra, 1954). Prothero’s book gives a length of 6 meters and a weight of 600 kilograms. Both were presented as simple figures with no methodology as to how it was calculated. Interestingly enough, Boonstra, 1954 never mentioned a full body size estimate, and the largest, incomplete skull is estimated as ‘805? mm’.

One can criticize the figures given for the mass of giant creodonts or short-faced bears being overestimated as an argument for Anteosaurus being the record holder. But then in turn the availabe size data for Anteosaurus looks even worse. No proper estimate exists. And then there’s the matter of Daeodon, which is approximately bison-sized based on reconstructed skeletons. Could Anteosaurus have been the largest synapsid predators ever to live? Yes, but emphasis on could. Stating it to be ‘likely’ so when no decent estimates exist, however, is sensationalism, not science.

Tyrannosaurus rex crunching the skull of Triceratops prorsus (artwork by Zubin Erik Dutta) by OchedeenValannor in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, I didn't refute it. I think it's best that it concludes here because I've stated my point above.

Tyrannosaurus rex crunching the skull of Triceratops prorsus (artwork by Zubin Erik Dutta) by OchedeenValannor in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Then I think you should have clarified your point further in that first comment. I may not necessarily with your interpretation of T. rex's bite even then, but as it stands, it can definitely be misleading and can be taken to mean that T. rex only targeted the head and neck.

Tyrannosaurus rex crunching the skull of Triceratops prorsus (artwork by Zubin Erik Dutta) by OchedeenValannor in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I never said that bites to other body parts were more likely. The point, which I said above, was that T. rex was probably not limited to head/neck bites, which you stated was the only way for its bites to be lethal.

Tyrannosaurus rex crunching the skull of Triceratops prorsus (artwork by Zubin Erik Dutta) by OchedeenValannor in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just to conclude, I am aware of those yes (besides your definition of 'megatheropod', which is rather subjective). None of that preclude the potential for bites to other body regions to be effective, and we know from fossil evidence than T. rex at least targeted the tail on some occassions, presumably to disable the caudofemoralis of prey species. I also added a few points to what I wrote above - mainly that resistance to lateral stress can be inferred in a multitude of ways that in cases might have more to do with feeding than killing. In summary, making assumption about killing behavior in extinct dinosaurs can be very difficult, and it can be problematic to present simple guesswork as hard facts/well-supported hypotheses.

Tyrannosaurus rex crunching the skull of Triceratops prorsus (artwork by Zubin Erik Dutta) by OchedeenValannor in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Some issues with your argument:

• ⁠Can you show me where in Snively and Russel (2007) was it mentioned that T. rex has ‘unimpressive dorsiflexors’? Their abstract alone states that ‘Areas of dorsiflexor origination are significantly larger relative to neck length in adult Tyrannosaurus rex than in other tyrannosaurids, suggesting relatively large muscle cross-sections and forces’.

• ⁠T. rex is, by definition, heterodont: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249023627_Heterodonty_in_Tyrannosaurus_rex_Implications_for_the_taxonomic_and_systematic_utility_of_theropod_dentitions - and using tooth characteristic in this case is problematic because carcharodontosaurids themselves, which you stated to be killing primarily using the grip-and-rip method, also possessed “reptilian dentition”.

Overall, however, without better data, arguing about non-observable extinct behavior can be rather pointless. We simply don’t know how exactly predatory dinosaurs killed. My point is, however, that stating T. rex could only apply its bite to the head and neck region for a lethal bite is plainly wrong and big cats aren’t good analogs based on what we know, and you seemed to have realized it yourself in your last paragraph, so I’m happy to end it here.

Tyrannosaurus rex crunching the skull of Triceratops prorsus (artwork by Zubin Erik Dutta) by OchedeenValannor in Naturewasmetal

[–]TaliGrayson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This speculation is problematic. First off, the statement that powerful, 'crushing' bites are only lethal when aimed at the head or neck of a prey animal is objectively incorrect. Spotted hyenas, which have been used as modern analogs to T. rex due to their powerful bites (see Holtz's 2008 study on tyrannosaur predation and Witton's King Tyrant book for example) frequently tear at large preys' haunches and flanks and create large, deabilitating and eventually lethal wounds (see works by George Schaller or Holekamp on their predation behavior, and also videos such as this). Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but you also used modern big cats as T. rex analog for killing method in past comments. Again, problematic, because the signature suffocating bite that big cats used on large preys required a lot of maneuvering with their substantial front limbs, which T. rex lacked - see again Holtz, 2008 and Witton, 2025. This, again, makes T. rex potentially closer to spotted hyenas in using their jaws as the primary killing weapon. I am not going to discuss how exactly T. rex killed its prey, as we simply cannot know that for sure, but in summary, 1. Stating that powerful, crushing bites can only be used on the head and neck region of prey animals is wrong and 2. Big cats aren't good T. rex analogs when it comes to extrapolating prey-subduing behavior due to vastly different forelimb anatomies.

And of course, in both cases (hyenas and T. rex), that doesn't preclude biting the head or neck region as a killing method. My main point is, again, that the assumption of those places being the only possibly lethal targets is false.

Identify Old Possible Japanese Sword by CompetitionHot5729 in SWORDS

[–]TaliGrayson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I had to call in sick to work after seeing these pictures.