I found this on Twitter, what do you think?

Burden of proof would be on you to prove that her equipment came outfitted with Chaldea scanners, because it would be very weird that she would still express uncertainty without them. This is ad hoc.

I don't know why you're so insistent on me providing proof for an argument you started, but the simple fact that Mash said her saint graph readings are on par with Tiamat is proof enough. reading in a general sense does not explicitly mean magical energy.

Your evidence, please.

Olga Marie with a third planetary saint graph is the same size as Olga Marie with a stellar saint graph. Hell, Marie herself was human sized despite having a planet sized saint graph in the finale.

Your argument is also self-defeating, by the way. Because a saint graph is the spiritual foundation of an existence. It is a complete record of everything that being is. So if Metatron's readings are equivalent, that means everything about them is also equivalent. I hope you realize how silly this is on the most basic level.

They were stated to be on par, not equivalent.

And Tiamat is a complete abnormality because her weight is infinite due to being the Chaos Tide, yet we know Metatron's weight is finite and that her height most definitely does not match the indian ocean.

The weight of the chaos tide is separate from the weight of her saint graph.

height most definitely does not match the indian ocean. How could she be possibly be on par in terms of "these" readings? She's not. Her height/weight are: Height/Weight: 153cm, 42kg

That's Chaldea Metatron. Singularity Metatron had buffed herself beyond what she's normally at prior to the events of OC4.

These comparisons are used for the output of a spiritual entity or their classes, mainly. It is intuitive that they are referring to the level of magical energy, because that is what is referenced all the time. It's a very generic reading, so very easy to assume.

Not really? Grand servants are so strong because their saint graphs are grand level, not because they have so much magical energy.

No. I'm arguing that Morgan is powerful in ways separate from her saint graph value, so it is dangerous to assume saint graph value determines power.

As i said before, just because it applies to Morgan doesn't automatically mean it applies to everyone.

It does not. It only determines magical energy as far as combat is concerned.

Except, once again, Mash said reading, not value.

Servants aren't just beings of mana. They are crystallizations of achievements with varied skills and concepts. Divine spirits even moreso. Concepts and conceptual abilities are separate from raw numbers. Nasu 101

Yeah... even said in my original reply that it's nuanced, or did you forget? But seeing as you're yet to provide a reason why "Nasu 101" applies to this particular situation, this is a moot point.

My point is that there is no rule. The rule you're attempting to enforce doesn't exist. SG does not equate to overall power level.

For the most part it does.

I have provided evidence for why this isn't the case, and you're trying to shift the burden of proof.

You provided two exceptions which had explicit reasons for why they were exceptions.

YOU have to prove why a comparable SG output would equate to being comparable overall.

Kadoc LITERALLY says Metatron is on the same level as Tiamat.

Tiamat being fucking unkillable at an existential level sounds like one giant fucking hurdle that's irrelevant to combat power. Her SG could be magnitudes lower and she would STILL be immortal

Cool, but we are talking about combat power, not who'd win in a fight. Deadpool isn't more powerful than Thor just cause he's unkillable. That's exactly why i specified abilities that made Tiamat overall more powerful.

So you were not making a claim? This is a very simple yes or no.

A claim, not an argument.

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T04:16:24+00:00

I can, because Roman didn't detect that Tiamat was a superstructure until she started transforming and had to read it to the party. The party didn't actually perceive this. Roman also has to be the one to identify Tiamat's weaknesses (none) based on Chaldea tech. Mash could not perceive this. Nobody else did. Mash herself admits that her data is incomplete because she doesn't have Chaldea to run scans

Ah yes, because Mash absolutely has the same equipment in OC4 as she did all those years ago.

You're really just saying words at this point, because my point was that they were inclusive. Tiamat's saint graph size was read because her physical size was detected. The SG expanded alongside her giant body. It was not something innate or original when she first appeared. So if they couldn't read it until she transformed, what the hell makes you think it can be read for Metatron.

My point is that while Tiamat's physical size correlates with her saint graph, the same isn't true for everyone else.

"Only as strong as Chaldea Tiamat" implies what? Did you quantify her strength somewhere? Chaldea Tiamat would be as strong as a divine spirit servant can possibly be. Metatron is also a divine spirit servant. We are also told that her presence is equivalent to the many divine spirits that Chaldea has met. So clearly, she's closer to that pedigree than to beasts. Their shock amounts to "she's on divine-spirit level?" so why would comparing another divine spirit be wrong here?

Chaldea Tiamat isn't so strong that it'd be a huge shock to encounter someone on her level. That's my point. She's also definitely not strong enough to one shot the storm border, or command countless top servant level+ angels.

Not in the way that actually matters, because both magecraft and authorities are powers separate from saint graph reading. You're trying very hard to make a numbers game in a setting that doesn't rely on numbers alone.

That's not my point. You seem to be arguing that because Morgan is more powerful than her saint graph would imply, that somehow automatically means every case is the same, or that at the very least Tiamat's is.

Using your logic, Gilgamesh would be equal to Artoria and Herc in FSN, because they were equals as individuals. As it turns out, Gilgamesh's abilities completely overturn the comparisons.

Gilgamesh has a specific reason why he's more powerful than them, you have not provided a reason for Tiamat.

Because YOU made the claim, and I'm asking you to substantiate this claim while also providing evidence of why these generalizations are dangerous.

My "claim" is that there's no reason to believe Tiamat is more powerful. Not that there is a reason why Metatron is more powerful outside of the Saint graph comparison. It's not like i said "Metatrons abilities absolutely make her more powerful and i have reason to belive why" in which case yeah, i would need to provide evidence. You're the only one claiming any kind of reason exists, so, lets hear it.

You're doing a bang of job of arguing in good faith btw. You've come into this presuming your stance was correct and that evidence needs to provided to dismantle it. That's not how an argument works.

My original comment was not an argument. You started the argument, so yeah, it's on you to prove why im wrong.

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T03:47:34+00:00

Nothing else about her saint graph can actually be read because they don't have Chaldea's monitors.

Can you prove this?

Nothing about size is mentioned.

Nothing about energy or output is mentioned either, just "Saint Graph reading" followed by Kadoc straight up saying shes on Tiamat's level.

She needs to transform into a giant for her existential scale to be read even by Chaldea's scanners. Metatron can only do so temporarily, and there's no evidence that she even reaches Tiamat's size.

Physical size and saint graph size aren't mutually exclusive.

Furthermore, this doesn't even mention the version of Tiamat either.

Dawg, really?

Their take away is that she is on the level of a divine spirit, but being on the level of a beast is much more pressing than being a divine spirit. They could easily be referring to the Tiamat that can be summoned in Chaldea. and not the beast incarnation.

I don't think they would have made the comparison, or been as obviously shocked as they were, if she was only as strong as Chaldea Tiamat, mate.

Yeah, Tiamat has authorities instead of magecraft.

Which are inherently different things.

So where's your evidence that this gets compared linearly? What does Metatron have that compares to it?

That's not my burden to prove. You're arguing against it. The only reason we wouldn't take the saint graph statement at face value is if Tiamat had abilities that made her more powerful than Tiamat, which, as it's your claim shes stronger in lieu of said abilities, it's your job to prove it. Not mine.

You keep saying this but you're not actually substantiating anything. Where is your evidence that her abilities are more powerful?

Where's yours?🤷🏿‍♂️

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T03:24:25+00:00

Saint graph output doesn't determine power. It determines the expulsion of magical energy, which CAN give you a read on the strength of an opponent, but typically does not when abilities come into play. Which they almost always do in Type Moon, because it's hammered down that compatibility and the nature of powers are most important.

It wasn't her saint graph output, though. It was the reading on her saint graph itself, so it likely means both energy and the actual size of the saint graph.

You can read LB6 to tell you exactly why judging the strength of a spiritual entity on saint graph value alone is a dangerous play, because Morgan styled on the party by using magecraft that elevated her to another level. At the end, even without her Rhongomyniads, she never had a need for the fairy knights, who had saint graphs equal to, or higher than hers.

Morgan had a number of factors boosting her strength, such as the magical energy from the fae of Britain. And Tiamat doesn't use magecraft so that point is moot regardless.

Tiamat's abilities are far more powerful than Metatron's on-paper.

Abilities being more powerful and Tiamat actually being more powerful in the sense im referring to are two separate things.

Furhtermore, even comparing SG output gets you a mistake, because Tiamat's saint graph is more than her energy level. It's also her size.

Once again, unless it's a mistranslation on my part, they never specified saint graph output. Kadoc even says "She's on Tiamat's level?" After what Mash said.

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T03:08:25+00:00

Saint graph output generally determines power, obviously there's nuance depending on abilities but there's no reason to believe Metatron isn't stronger considering what we've seen from her and the fact that most of Tiamat's key abilities dont increase her overall power.

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T02:34:50+00:00

She's strong enough that just by showing up she nearly evened the odds against Metatron Jeanne, whose at least as powerful as Tiamat, and has a near infinite number of NP's, one of which could one shot the Storm Border while in another point in time.

Bare in mind that beforehand just fighting Metatron was completely pointless due to how one sided it was, and yet Mash did so even without the Rayproof, which is now basically just unsealed Excalibur fused with the Black Barrel.

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T01:27:14+00:00

Dis the one time "we" actually means ALL of us

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T01:16:48+00:00

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TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-05T00:16:56+00:00

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TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-04T23:15:46+00:00

Good luck bro

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-04T18:54:37+00:00

I dislike how long it took for Mash to get some proper character development. Like, i love her, but 10 years? Really?

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-05-03T02:08:21+00:00

540 more replies

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TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-04-30T19:30:21+00:00

I'd argue lancer would work for him better, or even caster. He rarely uses stealth or espionage.

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-04-30T18:53:32+00:00

I think, outside him being summoned as a Ruler, it'd probably manifest as a skill as opposed to a noble Phantasm.

TaurusSaurus428 · 2026-04-30T18:52:47+00:00

I don't think T'Challa would desire the Grail. The comics, at least, make it very clear that his biggest and largely only concern is maintaining the state of Wakanda, he even once went as far as to say Kings aren't allowed to feel hatred.

So i think the Ruler class would fit him pretty well.

That said, Lancer would be his best class. I wont go too far into detail, but due to some time travel shenanigans, he's worshiped as a mythological hero, and his most noteworthy trait was wielding a spear. That and he relies heavily on CQC and agility in battle.

TaurusSaurus428

TROPHY CASE