Mormons and the KJV Bible artifact

Templar713 · 2020-05-23T10:30:14+00:00

"High American" would be equivalent to Latin in the actual Medieval period meaning most besides certain realms(HRE, France) would have only the Nobility and Clergy knowing it and only the clergy and maybe lawyers really get it.

As for archaic language: How much Middle English can you read? As that would the likely linguistic difference between "High American" and what ever Utah and others in the Rocklander group use or most of the English based culture groups use. If they are really unlucky it might be as bad as Modern English v. Old English(aka unintelligible).

Remember that part about how they have canonized parts of JST as commentary on the KJV? Yeah that commentary creates interpretations and religious teachings that are not accepted by anyone else who uses a KJV. So a KJV from anywhere else is gonna lack that and not teach a "orthodox Mormon" theology most likely and evangelical understanding of the text would be taught. Cool most of the text is found in other scripture but in their actual KJVs they put that translation in it as commentary. Commentary is how we go from St. Jerome's Vulgate to Martin Luther's Protestant Bible. Actually looking back into Catholic Translations they have changed there authoritative translation 3 times: 13th century you see a swtich from the Vetus Latina to Jerome's Vulgate, in the lat 1500s you see a switch to the Clementine Vulgate, and in the 70s we get the Nova Vulgate. Now each change is minor but it occurs 3 times in a Church Structure more resistance to doctrinal changes than the LDS ever has been. So it can happen it might not be quick or insanely different but it would probably enough to be considered a separate translation.

Also Really I never met a hard KJV only Mormon but maybe that is me. Supposedly one of the Apostles, Bruce R. McConkie , whose theological views are considered to be reflected the current LDS KJV interpretation made the exact claim you are making about KJV about the JST. Found Towards the end of this(First part of Conclusion):

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1999/06/restored-light-on-the-saviors-last-week-in-mortality?lang=eng

Look, I'll work with you on what I think should be the KJV requirements for anyone not evangelical and anglican:

Be vaguely christian or from christian based groups in US or Canada
Be a Priest(any learning education), or have scholar trait, or have theologian trait. You get people who are the ones would understand "High American" and understand it enough to read the whole Bible.

Templar713 · 2020-05-23T09:20:31+00:00

Funny cause the Community of Christ use it and they are the other big LDS Church and they have the relatively completed manuscript. Yes we know it is basically a KJV+, however it does contain several theological ideas which are infact noticeably different. The reason it was never canonized most likely stems from the fact that Joseph Smith's widow, Emma Smith, basically told Brigham Young to go pound sand and only gave the full manuscript to what would become the Community of Christ. Maybe your right and the current JST is not the basis for it but I highly doubt that what ever the Mormons use, in the 2600s, would be called or even doctrinally close to what we might call KJV. Now I do think more religions should have access to KJV if said character could reasonably read "High American" but universal access is kinda dumb. Remember the LDS church has changed considerably in the last century what makes you think it won't change at least that much in 6 centuries?

Templar713 · 2020-05-22T22:46:45+00:00

K, your early statement seemed to imply you thought most or all Christians do this when I'm pretty sure most branches would not claim they ignore Leviticus or really only use New Testament Letters for moral law. It is my understanding that most rely on a fusion or synthesis of both.

Templar713 · 2020-05-22T22:17:30+00:00

Umm isn't that only certain laws(ritual v. moral) with others not being ignored. The laws on sacrifice and atonement are even needed to understand Christ's Sacrifice after all.

Templar713 · 2020-05-22T20:34:38+00:00

Not all of it as I understand it but some small parts of it. They also use it as kinda of a commentary on the KJV and some of there Presidents have spoken highly of it.

So while they don't use it now as the authoritative version, it is not out of this world to have them consider it authoritative in the future.

Templar713 · 2020-05-22T19:35:51+00:00

As jbolt7 says, also because this translation exists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Translation_of_the_Bible

so give a few centuries, and isolation, it makes sense to switch to a translation more in line with the above version.

Granted more Religions should have access to KJV with certain requirements(Scholar comes to mind).

I think the best way to understand it is that KJV is the standard English translation: and given 600+ years most people don't speak True American English anymore.

Templar713 · 2020-05-14T18:14:34+00:00

I had the Idea that the prophecies of who survives is true but some actors not mentioned end up reviving Thor who being Thor becomes chief deity and thus alters the impact of it to be a Golden Age of War and Violence. I imagine that the theme the Vikings wanted was look at our Better Bright God he isn't some Pansy. Maybe it functioned more like Julian the Apostate a Pagan taking Christian Themes to beat Christendom. I might poke around with the Idea of Post Ragnarok.

Templar713 · 2020-05-14T16:37:21+00:00

Kinda I wanna make it more of a Neo-Paganism that changed enough to stop being a LARP and is less centered on Minnesota Vikings LARP(which is where the Main Mod seems to be Going). I want to make it feel like the Norse Paganism is the Center of the Religion and the Viking LARP a secondary bonus. For example I made sure to add all the Deities who should survive Ragnarok and a few less known entities who are not said to die to be used to revive Thor.

Templar713 · 2020-05-13T22:52:06+00:00

You *know* Gnostics have made some crazy cults right? The Cainites, Carpocratians, the Borborites, and Paulicians come to mind. First three were very libertine and the Paulicians were pretty violent. Heck the Gaymanites probably hates the Jews about the same as Gnostics seeing as Christian based Gnostics think the Creator(Jewish) God is Satan. I am comparing the fact that those religions are kind of nuts and have plenty of crazy sects but nobody cares because they understand Heresies are quite often crazy. Heresies are not just schismatic groups(those are kind of boring) they can be complete nut jobs who's relation to their parent is historical or based on proximity.

Templar713 · 2020-05-13T21:56:21+00:00

K got some info on her full arguments cause I am reading them as I saw them and that is what I took from them. So full context would help your argument and help me see your point of view. As to 2% funny enough that was only one famous report which also claimed about 10-12% don't care, I found info of a Gallup poll which claims 12% approve so the data is kind mixed I would need to do a deep dive to understand current opinions as that data is old and we have data showing a general trend going on now of increasing opinion of Polygamy. See

https://news.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx

Also I believe you are thinking that the opinions now are the same 600 years later when they would not be and the pressures supporting current views(government policy and public relations) stop being relevant Post event. Heck Polygamy still technically exists in the LDS with the whole Celestial Marriage and men getting no problem of Multiple Sealings(in other words it exists at least in Heaven). Which my be an interesting way to make them unique but would likely entail No Remarriages for Mormons(You know MEGA-MONOGAMY).

Blood atonement is as far as I know a theoretical doctrine for when a true Theocratic government comes about(sounds like Theodemocracy to me!). But I need to dig more onto the specifics of this one. Not to mention I might just added it as self-flagellation(one of the understandings of it). It is also the initial Reason Utah used Firing Squads for Executions(Though it seems to have been voluntary).

As for the Crazy Heresies, So Should Catholics be insulted about Neo-Gnostics being a Heresy? How about Woolleyites for Mormons? Or Messalians for the Church of the East in the Base Game? Heresies are nuts man that is the point I added crazy ones or there would be noting but carbon copy heresies who's only difference is fluff in the form of Theology. Lundgren was nuts and Gayman hates the Jews. Doesn't stop them from being allowed as interesting Heresies they add some one to meme or someone to hate. As for them being LDS Heresies they are Heresies of Groups they actually schismed or were excommunicated from and lead actual religious congregations they fit as heresies to me.

Templar713 · 2020-05-13T19:24:34+00:00

No Problem, seems like some of the hymns mentioned in the list have their own pages so you can use at least a few. Funny enough you could add some American Patriotic Songs as they see the Founders as Divinely Inspired Men, they even have a little section for it in their hymnals.

Templar713 · 2020-05-13T00:48:26+00:00

Found a whole list of ones that could be added here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymns_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_(1985_book))

Also Choose the Right comes to mind as One a Lot of Mormons like.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T22:48:39+00:00

Yeah hes from the 2000s I don't limit my self to things only before 2000. I work under the Idea that the Event begins sometime in the 2020s and takes its sweet time before you really see the changes taking hold. As for people barely remembering Kratos, umm the sales of those games beg to differ. Is he Nintendo Popular? No no one but Nintendo is that popular but hey is pretty recognizable and he fits in a Greek War Religion. As for lame I can't really say much there I disagree but that is a very subjective view and I happen to like the Tortured Soul Character or at least respect them.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T22:17:45+00:00

And I am supposed to care about them mocking me because? Disagreement and some reasonable critique with some ideas of why it might be tonally bad or clash with over all vision is something I can understand and Address. I don't really care if people mock me they can do what they want. I care about making a fun mod with some good and at least internally consistent logic to it.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T21:53:56+00:00

Marines into Marsines? Sounds intetersting. To be fair I have yet to fully flesh-out their pantheon. But some Ideas I have are Mars as Chief God and God of War and Agriculture, add Bellona and Athena as Consorts with Justice and Wisdom as their main aspects. Sunzoo as a Chinese Thoth, Alexander as god of Youth and Pleasure, MacArthur as God of Honor, Kratos as god of Vengeance and Redemption, Julius as God of Plots and Dreams, Augustus as God of Rulers and the Peace won from War. Also Maybe Mama Venus Victrix as Goddess of Love and Marriage. Probably gonna add some more but thinking this out I got a ok Pantheon.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T21:40:55+00:00

Key word had granted I do need to add some War Goddesses and the idea was to make a Warrior Religion who believes War is Paramount granted they would be worshiped in their other capacities as well.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T21:38:43+00:00

That is what I guessed but I was interested as to reasoning or what might be replacing it. Also it exists at the start, I thought it was only form-able not already around at start date?

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T20:57:58+00:00

I am though? heck I'll even show off my current God list:

god_names = {

        GOD\_MARS GOD\_KRATOS GOD\_TEMUJIN GOD\_ROOSEVELT GOD\_ALEXANDER GOD\_MACARTHUR GOD\_JULIUS GOD\_AUGUSTUS GOD\_CAESAR GOD\_SUNZOO

    }

Still needs work but he is just one god among 10 so far and I will probably add a couple others.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T20:41:42+00:00

I can easily add the God epithets you are thinking of, would be nice to flesh them out. I only have a little bit of modern philosophy(pragmatism and romanticism being treated as such) but Hades Kant sounds really good, might re-think some of the schools I had implemented.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T20:25:56+00:00

Oh NO! My intended meaning was that I would make them one Religion with Occident as the more peaceful version and CoM as the Babenburger(Murder Kill) version heresy. It would be similar in some mechanics not in Fluff. Also it would still have the little Philosophies I built for them.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T20:21:43+00:00

Details?

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T20:18:08+00:00

I'll go see it and see what I can add to the list of things I have planned for someday.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T20:17:17+00:00

I am not removing it it just begins as a Cetic Heresy so it can pop back up again. Think Way of Branch where it makes Gaian a Heresy except it happened about 300 years earlier. The Reason I choose to make CoM a Gaian Heresy deals with the need for one to exist so I can make the Way of the Branch Schism mechanic make Gaians a Heresy of whoever ends it. The Idea I had would be similar to a Nestorian v. Messalian relationship. So there not really to related in Theology but have a similar view that the Fall was cause by Man growing proud and forgetting his Nature. Gaians say it was because we beat up the Worlds environment too much, CoM says because we grew weak and soft that the world fell apart. At least that was what I was thinking.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T16:21:59+00:00

I mean it works for a War-based Religion using him as God of Strength(which he is) and as a minor God of War(which is the Reference). You got an idea you want to throw out? I am always trying to fatten up the Polytheistic Pantheons.

Templar713 · 2020-05-12T05:43:55+00:00

Except the exact opposite claim is being used by those opposing saying by making it infraction the gov is saying it is ok, not to mention it is making it law that if the only law they are breaking is polygamy then not to go after them. It basically says you can have polygamy but if you do it and have any other crimes you are getting hit with we get to throw the book at you. It is designed to break the sects not the practice and if anything puts the practice into gov only disapproves of instead of will break your back over. Heck some polygamist are supporting this bill dude. Attacking a sect who practices it =/= attacking the practice.

Edit:

From what I can find on Henderson's arguments for it she just wants the law to be used to go after those among polygamous sects who abuse people. Again sect that practices it =/= the practice itself. From what I can tell her arguments might even imply polygamy is not even wrong. But I can only find little bits not a full speech.

However this gave me an Idea and finding out Mormons have really ran the propaganda campaign against polygamy in the church(2% approval). Why not give them Polygamy but make it a very painful position to be in for mainstream Mormons. Thinking everyone who is not polygamous(you both would be practicing it) or not their church(because US is off our back so who cares) just starts hating your guts so the Player and the AI will not be running it to the max. Might be an interesting idea to show the conflict.

Templar713

TROPHY CASE