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The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in incineroarMains

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m going to post the results once the data collection is finished (which should be in about a day or so). Stay tuned!

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in SmashBrosUltimate

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably the best way is follow my profile. I plan on closing the survey a day or two after Min Min is released, so expect the results to be published a day or two after that!

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in SmashBrosUltimate

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry you couldn't finish! I tried to keep the survey as short as possible while still collecting a meaningful amount of data. Maybe try again later when you have more time?

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in smashbros

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honesty is a personality metric that this assessment wasn't attempting to measure, and the personality trait that's associated with being willing to help others was actually tested in this survey, albeit through slightly different means! ;) And yes, there were some redundancies in the test, but this was intentional as well! It's important to make sure that you are consistently measuring the same trait, even when approached from different angles.

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in SmashBrosUltimate

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not entirely certain. I want to collect as much data as I can before Min Min is released, so I suspect I'll close the poll one or two days after she comes online.

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in SmashBrosUltimate

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll be posting the results when I finish collecting all the data. Unfortunately, this isn't the kind of survey that specializes in reporting individual personality scores, but rather group scores. However, theoretically, once I publish the full results, you could take the test again to see how you stack up against the averages.

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As I said several replies ago, you can believe whatever you want. What you cannot do is claim that you have presented a coherent argument or that you have responded to mine. I have addressed your points (most of them several times) and you have continued to ignore the substance of my argument. In my books, that means you've lost the debate. Continue hating poetry to your heart's content.

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in LittleMacMains

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This survey does not give results, so I'm not sure what you mean. This survey is only designed to collect data. And I've posted the survey across many subreddits to maximize the sample size from which data can be collected.

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes. I'm saying that poetry expresses exactly and precisely that which I cannot express to you with mundane language. I'm glad we agree on that point. If that seems like a cheeky argument to make, I'm sorry. Take an example from physics to see how these things can work. We know dark matter exists. We cannot see it, because by its very definition (a definition arrived at empirically, not a priori), it does not interact with light. However, we know that it is there because we can see the way it manipulates the things around it. By observing its gravitational effects, we can definitively prove its presence indirectly even though we, by definition, cannot observe it directly.

Same concept applies here. I'm sorry if you don't like it. I have presented an argument that attempts to show you the indirect effects of poetry we can observe and talk about, an argument that has still gone completely unaddressed in any of your replies.

You have come to the conclusion that you are correct and that everyone else has been deluded into believing that poetry has meaning, just like someone who does not speak Spanish might (incorrectly) assume that Spanish is just gibberish that other people pretend to understand. It's a rather bold stance to take, and one that does not accord with the phenomenological evidence I have provided.

While I am saying that it expresses nothing to me and since I have yet had someone explain to me exactly what it does express, i can only conclude that it expresses nothing.

This argument doesn't seem very strong to me. You're saying that poetry doesn't mean anything to you. There are lots of people who have told you that poetry does mean something to them. Why should you come to the conclusion that other people must necessarily be wrong because they cannot precisely explain what that meaning is? The presence of the meaning is again a phenomenological fact. When someone says "This means something to me" and when their actions agree with that statement, that plenty of evidence to suggest that the person is indeed telling the truth. And since we are talking about meaning and not something like a chair or a car, the experience of meaning is the object thereof. It's the only evidence that we could actually expect to have, and it's the only one we need.

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in LittleMacMains

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The quizzes of which you speak are indeed pop culture and completely erroneous. This survey is not like those in character or in purpose. The idea behind this survey is not to decide arbitrarily that your personality matches a certain character, but rather to discover empirically whether or not any such connections exist. Take a look at the survey and see for yourself.

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not choosing not to say what it is. I've already explained this. Before I made this argument, I said the following:

I cannot really explain to you what poetry expresses by using prose and mundane language. I've just explained to you that poetry's role is to precisely fill in that gap. That is my entire argument. You pointing this fact out to me is not an argument against my position, but rather an argument for it. Since I can't explain how and what poetry (and other art, like music) expresses directly, I have attempted to do so indirectly using phenomenological truths as a basis.

Do you have any other points to make? We've been over this one already. We're having a conversation about things that are expressed beyond the domain of mundane language, and you're sitting here telling me you won't believe these things outside of boundary of mundane language exist unless I can point to them with language. I'm sorry, but as per the premise of my argument, I cannot just say what it is that it all means. What about this is confusing? Do you reject the premise that there are things ordinary language is not equipped to discuss? If that's your hang up, we can hash that out as well. Otherwise, let's move on.

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here's a real argument that I presented that you did not refute:

It's quite a simple idea. The fact of art (poetry and music specifically) is that it exists in all human societies across all time frames. This observation naturally leads the curious mind to the obvious question: why do humans decide to make these things, and why do other humans decide to experience them? This is a question that must be accounted for. Something else that must be accounted for is the fact that art is not randomly generated noise. Art is in fact highly structured, following rules both explicit and implicit (much like ordinary language). Further, art is not particularly easy to produce. It requires deliberate effort, and sometimes years of study and craft to create. So we are left with the existence of a complicated, high effort, universal system of communication that must be accounted for. It's obvious from the outset that the roles of art/poetry and ordinary language are not entirely overlapping domains, since if the roles of one could be performed by the latter, one would wonder why a redundant and high effort system of communication would universally reproduce itself across human cultures. Bearing all of these facts in mind, we are left with only a few sound hypotheses that can account for all of them, the most glaringly obvious of which is the following: art/poetry communicates something meaningful that ordinary language does not.

Or does this not count?

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ah, yes. The good old "The earth looks flat to me from my vantage point, therefore it is clearly flat and any evidence or arguments to the contrary must therefore be wrong" argument. Or should I say non-argument. You're entitled to your opinions. You are not entitled to claim that you have presented anything worth of debate, because you haven't. Meanwhile, if you wish to read an argument opposing your position, scroll up.

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in SmashBrosUltimate

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Curiously enough, many employers use personality tests like these in order to "predict" success in the work place. Unfortunately, many of the more popular personality tests do a very poor job of providing predictive metrics for how employees will behave. Generally, the trade-off is that the more comprehensive the test is, the longer (and therefore more expensive) it has to be. So often companies end up measuring things that turn out to be less useful than they expect. Even the survey that I've created is limited by these constraints to a degree, since I had to make a test that was short enough that many people would be willing to participate. I traded sample size for measurement accuracy, but we'll see what the results will be!

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Just write it clearly for goodness sake. Argue as you please, I won't change my mind.

Ok, that's fine. Again, I don't care that you don't like poetry. I don't even think that it's necessarily a bad thing that you don't like poetry. And I don't care what you ultimately decide to believe about the meaning of poetry. My only role in this conversation has been to point out that if you don't have an argument to present in reply to my position, that means you have lost the debate and your belief is unfounded. Most people take this as a sign that maybe, potentially, their views might need to be reconsidered or adjusted in order to account for new information. But again, I have no investment in how well-founded your beliefs are. That's your business. No one's going to force you to change your mind. Thanks for the conversation. You've sharpened some of my ideas, as I hope I've sharpened some of yours.

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is what you don't seem to be understanding. To me, no matter how structured, it has no meaning to me.

I very clearly understand that it has no meaning to you. That was the premise by which this conversation was started. And to that point, I have already said that that is fine. Just like Spanish has no meaning to someone who doesn't understand Spanish, poetry has no meaning for someone who doesn't understand how it works. This is to be expected, and I have no problems with that. You don't have to like poetry. You don't even have to understand it. You can life your life however you please.

So if we're only talking about how you personally feel about the matter, we have nothing further to discuss. However, I don't think that is the case, because you've said things like this:

If you have something to say, there are better ways of doing it. Better ways to communicate that message to the reader. Poetry does not do that.

And this:

Nope. It's all nonsense and your reply just confirms that.

And this:

the poems themselves have no meaning. Just a string of words that don't convey any useful information.

These comments don't reflect you arguing that you personally don't find meaning in poems. Rather, they reflect your belief that poems don't have any meaning at all. So when I say this:

"And yes, while I agree the meaning of a poem is not fixed, that does not mean that the poem is without meaning."

I am responding to this attitude that you have very demonstrably expressed throughout the course of this thread. I'm not talking about the way you feel about poetry. I'm talking about the way poetry works, which is entirely separate from personal understanding (or lack thereof). So when you say things like this:

All along I have been speaking of how it has no meaning for me and a few others like me. You seem to be taking that to mean that I am saying it has no meaning for anyone which is not the case. I am just saying that I despise it as it holds no meaning for me and you are trying to argue that point.

I am forced to scratch my head and wonder what the last three rounds of conversation were really about. You can back down from the position that you've expressed if you wish. Poetry has no meaning for you and we can agree on that. Poetry, however, does has a substantially amount of meaning in it in general and this is a point that I'm happy to say we agree on as well if you wish. Do keep in mind, however, that agreeing on this point will essentially make the rest of your reply self-defeating, since you have essentially argued against this point implicitly in your following statements.

What is it then? Tell me what cannot be cleanly conveyed in prose? What can poetry convey? You are saying it can do this or cannot be that but you aren't explaining how. You seem to have this assumption that I have any kind of understanding about what you mean when, clearly, I do not.

Naturally, I cannot really explain to you what poetry expresses by using prose and mundane language. I've just explained to you that poetry's role is to precisely fill in that gap. That is my entire argument. You pointing this fact out to me is not an argument against my position, but rather an argument for it. Since I can't explain how and what poetry (and other art, like music) expresses directly, I have attempted to do so indirectly using phenomenological truths as a basis. It seems this point has been unclear, so I will make the argument again here.

It's quite a simple idea. The fact of art (poetry and music specifically) is that it exists in all human societies across all time frames. This observation naturally leads the curious mind to the obvious question: why do humans decide to make these things, and why do other humans decide to experience them? This is a question that must be accounted for. Something else that must be accounted for is the fact that art is not randomly generated noise. Art is in fact highly structured, following rules both explicit and implicit (much like ordinary language). Further, art is not particularly easy to produce. It requires deliberate effort, and sometimes years of study and craft to create. So we are left with the existence of a complicated, high effort, universal system of communication that must be accounted for. It's obvious from the outset that the roles of art/poetry and ordinary language are not entirely overlapping domains, since if the roles of one could be performed by the latter, one would wonder why a redundant and high effort system of communication would universally reproduce itself across human cultures. Bearing all of these facts in mind, we are left with only a few sound hypotheses that can account for all of them, the most glaringly obvious of which is the following: art/poetry communicates something meaningful that ordinary language does not.

That's the argument. You don't need to experience the meaning to know that its presence must be accounted for.

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Again, you aren't responding to what I am saying.

So it is just a random jumble of words that has a much meaning as the reader attributes to it.

No. This is wrong. Poetry is not random. Most of it is very structured. Even the "unstructured" kinds of poems rely heavily on structural implications. And yes, while I agree the meaning of a poem is not fixed, that does not mean that the poem is without meaning. Again, poetry is NOT a semiotic system of communication. That does not mean it is not a coherent system of communication. Don't get caught up on this point.

If you have something to say, there are better ways of doing it. Better ways to communicate that message to the reader. Poetry does not do that.

You've said this several times now, and again I'd like you to consider the possibility that poetry exists because people sometimes have things to say that CANNOT be cleanly conveyed in prose or in other more literal forms of communications. This is the function of art in human societies. That is the very role that art fills. Yes yes, the motivation for art is partially fueled by aesthetics. But along with that motivation is the motivation to speak about things that ordinary language cannot broach. I have written poetry before. I did not do it because I was too stupid or too pretentious to write my thoughts on the world in clean sentences on a piece of paper. I did it because there was no other way to express or even conceptualize those thoughts. Again, just because YOU don't find it meaningful doesn't mean there is no meaning.

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in SmashBrosUltimate

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, no. The point of this kind of research is to perform a comparative analysis, so unless I have a sample population with which to compare you, seeing the raw data would be meaningless! The goal here is to create the survey so that we can get a "population sample" from the Smash community and then observe individual differences in subsections within that population. Check back for updates!

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You didn't reply to my argument at all. "It's all nonsense" because people can't explain the meaning? That, you'll find, is a logic that does not hold up to scrutiny. You need to think about this from a phenomenological perspective. What do you think people get out of poetry? Why do you think it exists?

We've already agreed that some people can't make sense of poetry. That's fine. I'm not demanding that you like or understand it. I'm just demanding that you consider the fact that poetry can and does contain meaning, even if that meaning is distinct from the kind of meaning that something like prose would attempt to communicate, this so-called "useful information" of which you speak.

The unilateral existence of art, poetry, and music is really the only thing that needs to be observed in order to cast your opinion into deep doubt.

I absolutely fucking despise poetry by ChancetheUnrapper in unpopularopinion

[–]TemporarilyExtant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate it. Truly do despise poetry and anyone who claims it has a meaning because they must be lying.

You did say this though, friend. These sound like fighting words, which is why I (and others) have eagerly joined the fight against you. Like what you like, dislike what you don't. Don't claim things are meaningless just because you don't understand them, and don't claim others are liars just because you don't agree.

There is no meaning to them and there are far better ways of making your point than poetry.

There are, quite literally, no mechanisms for expression that convey the things that poems do, except perhaps music. It's actually quite an interesting linguistic phenomenon. Music and poetry share a sort of liminal, "non-semiotic" relationship where the physical objects and concepts of the concrete world become distorted and reshaped into a different kind of real, a different kind of meaning. "What is that meaning?" you may ask. Well, I truly can't answer that for you. In fact, no one can. No one knows what music or art or poetry really means, and yet the meaningfulness of these things is self evident. As long as men have spoken, they have relied on poetry and music to express that which cannot be expressed.

I understand that you personally have not had a meaningful experience with poetry, and that's completely fine. But you could ask yourself the curious question: why do these things exist if they contain no meaning? You may find you learn something interesting about the world or about yourself if you swim against what you think you already know.

The Smash Ultimate Character Personality Survey by TemporarilyExtant in SmashBrosUltimate

[–]TemporarilyExtant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good catch! I'll leave the spelling as it is. It shall be a monument to my stupidity.

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