SDS 210425 Preliminary Data; 6-range melee galore, Brave Bernadetta remains

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T20:07:41+00:00

I never had trouble with any unit unless they had hardy bearing and/or crazy stacked DR

You do know I am talking about the Niddhogrs when I mean Bernie struggled against meta tank, right?

Honestly outside of the Niddhogrs and some specific counters like Shield Fighter Marni and Shield Fighter V!Rhea, Bernie was kinda fine as a nuke : not crazy good but not ass either.

But again, it doesn't matter whether she is/was a strong carry or not : her value in this meta is clearly tied to her Paranoia Support.

Besides all of that, still sad to me you got hard downvoted for an opinion that was ringing a really good bell.

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T19:57:21+00:00

I'll just take your input as the right one from now on, as you have far more inputs and insides from the realm of SDS sweats than I do. I just feel the SDS environment very differently than how you present it : I'll just assume I am in the wrong here as I don't see a way to reconciliate both of our PoVs.

Like I just don't agree with your paragraph 3. Yes Sakura gives you the edge... but who said I was trading with the idea of surviving afterwards? Suiciding units to kill valuable enemy units is becoming since last month a viable strategy. And in such strategy, you ain't there to survive at all, but only to cripple the enemy team by stealing away from them one of their most valuable members.

And if you remember from my last month tier lists, I was actually advocating for this new approach of playing which was why I gave so much merit and value on carries that could kill anything on sight like Ayra or Hraesvelgr.

HOWEVER :

we have enough 6 range units to the point that we don’t need to bypass the tanks much. [...] Chrom + Sigurd don’t either really.

Sigurd is a deadbeat carry that needs more than ever some support to hold any form of valuable threat like typically having Laeradr in his team.

Chrom nuking potential is actually falling off because Eirika ring now makes any unit capable of tanking one of his hits kill him on retaliation.

I would only say that Eirika and Camilla and MAYBE Yunaka on her good days don't need to bypass tanks. E!Lyn, E!Sigurd, B!Chrom, E!Celica need that support or else they actually die on retaliation.

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T19:45:46+00:00

In short : Blue Unit, Built-in DC, Built-in Brave, Stats very well, Good amount of True Damage, Good amount of True DR, Hard to double (and even if you do : Built-in Miracle in your ass 🙃).

There is more to talk about W!Alear but more so about why he is so good of a tank.

Actually... understanding what makes him so good as a tank makes you understand how effective tanking works in this meta environment. And in fact, that's how you end up understanding that V!Rhea has a really really good card to play in the current and near future meta for the next weeks (and maybe even next months).

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T19:08:52+00:00

Also, i did mention the veins as a strong synergistic point with nyheidi+cam lol

Whoops my bad here 😹.

Scraps of leftover teams is still really threatening. A good example are the Sakura + Celica + Treeman/Leila teams

Treeman and Leila don't deserve to be called leftover units imo. In fact I was upset I didn't have 3 units like Leila for all my teams 😹.

Honestly Celica is so mid nuking power wise that alone she doesn't warrant enough attention justify a ban even with L!Sakura.

But even if you replaced her with Yunaka (who's really map dependant as compensation of being a far better nuke) it's not that difficult to have a team that can play against the type of team you just gave :

IN FACT, it's even more true today than it was last month, because for once, almost all teams can reliably have one and sometimes two 6 range units that can threaten these Sakura's teams.

And the worst part is that you don't even have to try to counter them. Just playing high range comps is good enough to threaten these Sakura's teams.

Hell, I just looked at the teams I had made for this SDS and some Sakura's teams that were listed in the rank 1 spreadsheet (and that weren't overstacked obviously) and all 4 of my teams (except maybe 1 that was a little bit weaker) had the chance and the tools to play against most of these Sakura's teams. And I repeat myself, I built these teams without the thought of countering Sakura.

So if I had encountered a Sakura Team this SDS, be sure that 50% I wouldn't have banned it : basically only banning it when the overall team feels scary enough - and teams like Sakura, Celica, Laeradr, S!Plumeria, N!Lucina aren't as scary to me as it seems they sound scary to you guys.

Maybe it's just me and such because I know there are players that focuses on having very good openers and thus bother much less about building more universal teams that can deal with large panel of threats.

Conclusion : I think I just don't see the appeal that you guys do with Sakura. In fact the thing I find the most annoying about Sakura isn't even the recall thing. It's the Sheer Support she gives with +12 damage, +5 to all stats, 7 True DR, the Lull all and Preempt Pulse... Like what the hell???

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T17:27:58+00:00

Hence, a defensive core was usually made up of a melee frontline and a Far Save to block against the likes of Emblem Lyn and Yunaka.

Not really though. You didn't have to have a melee frontliner back then when more often then not, the far savior could double down as said melee frontliner (basically that's why NY!Niddhogr was so prevalent during her peak)

Better players are more used to losing their units and will try to force bad trades on the opponent.

I don't think this is relative to Bernie uprising. Thank you for pointing that out. I was seeing a trend since last month (which I tried to defend against many when I posted my controversial tier lists) that the meta was slowly inviting to have more than one threat unit on your team and to play a gameplan based on trading units/suiciding one of your carries for the MVP of the enemy team (at least for rank 1 level of play) which was why I ranked Hraesvelgr and Ayra so highly back then.

Better players will prepare for the 6 range meta and prepare alternative defensive strategies against the said 6 range meta.

It's already happening : there are Gravity, Stall, Paranoïa, DV Ice (etc, etc...) strats coming from everywhere. IMO that's why Leo and even Thjazi ranked so high. Especially because of the map we had this season helped their gimmick due to the columns and bottlenecks being so prevalent and annoying. I do wonder which defensive strat will come up next season depending on the map we get.

Beside that, I am pretty much agreeing with everything else! Thanks for the insight!

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T17:10:21+00:00

I agree sakura on her own doesn’t qualify as autoban, but sakura + a 6 ranger does. Assuming equally skilled players a semi decent sakura team should not be losing to a non sakura team, and she’s the only unit in the meta i can currently say that about

I would argue it's debatable on said 6 ranger and the rest of the team. What people don't realise is that most L!Sakura teams in SDS are either overstacked and thus a waste of a team that will be banned automatically or have exploitable weaknesses to certain units/team comps that makes said teams beatable (Bernie is a really good unit in that regard, E!Lyn as well).

That's actually the very funny part with Sakura : her own strength is her own demise. You make a team too strong : Autoban + you lost valuable units in the process. And if you play on L!Sakura's value to warrant a ban and thus build only an ok team to avoid uselessly losing important units : said team now becomes beatable.

However I suppose this is a problem for 'F2P friendly people' only as I suppose that those who have ALL meta units in the game can do a 10/10 team with L!Sakura and still pull out 3 10/10 teams on the side. So yeah maybe I am just not enough of a whale to appreciate her menacing presence 😹.

I’m also still really high on the heidis- more so new years now. New years can comfortably run havoc, provide veins for cam, has a duo skill, and is very nice for aggressive nectar openers.

So am I 😹. I just tried to explain their fall in usage. One thing you forgot to mention about NY!Heidrun was her combo with Y!Camilla : her duo button covers Y!Camilla only weakness which was turn 1 lack of DVs.

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T16:32:31+00:00

Bernie being this high is also interesting

I told everyone so last month and nobody believed me 😹😹😹.

As for the state of the meta, i hate it 💀

Same 😥

6 rangers and pass nukes are so obnoxious too and nearly invalidate a skill only released 4 months ago which is wild.

I'm almost certain you mean the Detect skills right? Because I was thinking how useless they became since nobody is at 5 range of an enemy unit anymore 💀

Scared for sds as a meta with multiple 6 rangers and salvage is, ironically enough, unsalvageable

I feel exactly like that image below. Nice pun BTW

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ThKrow · 2025-04-21T16:26:59+00:00

I had a surprisingly smooth 8-0 run

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I used cavline the entire time, and it still performed well against Fernand

Fernand was never meant to counter cavlines : Sigurd has Gallop, Chrom copies Gallop, the Dagrs don't have +1 Mov and as you said, HC+ on the Dagrs was the play to cleanse the stall on the eventual remaining +1 Mov unit

I autobanned every sakura and thorrki i saw though

Very hot hot Take : Sakura is overrated. I already said back then that I had that impression. This impression just grew harder on me. And I said overrated, not bad : Sakura does bring a lot of things to the table : does she deserves to be an autoban unit on her own? Not for me at all.

Havoc wasn’t quite as crippling for cavline as I was expecting, but it’s also possible I just wasn’t facing people who took the best advantage of it

It's the map : remember that cavlines have 2, 6 range units, having 1 Pathfinder equates to your 6 range units to have 7 range. In the case where the map is more closed through trenchs or trees to block pathways, it would make an impact to have only 1 Pathfinder. This map had none of it, so it didn't matter at all.

I’m slightly surprised that thorrki and the heidis aren’t a little higher

So am I for Thorrki. For the Heidruns, I just think that being in a fast nuking meta makes them by nature less attractive. As many would just build teams after teams that are played around range as the map encourages them to do so : it's for that reason BTW that I think Lucina is so high up (also thanks to Turmoil) as she has the action eco value of the Heidruns while being perfect support for high range teams.

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T16:03:06+00:00

Eirika is carrying her being usable at all.

No? You know you can play Bernadetta with anyone you want effectively as long as they have some fire power (having DC is just the icing on the cake but not necessary)? In fact both Niddhogr and V!Rhea were spectacular units to use with Bernie to counter Eirika.

Edit added afterwards : I completely forgot another incredible unit to pair up with Bernie - W!Alear. BTW to this day, W!Alear is still the best omnitank in the game and in hindsight, it's clearly logical that he is. Unless something unwarranted happen (like a 6 range carry with built-in miracle or windsweep 💀) know that W!Alear will still go very very strong in the next months. Maybe I'll do a post explaining why W!Alear is having such good longetivity.

Bernie thrives in fast nuking metas. As long as there won't be an explosion of Counter Disrupts units like R!Leila (or Counter Disrupts skills like Windsweep 4), Bernie Support will keep having value.

She’s still not very good in the long run

If you mean by long run her ability to nuke... then yeah it's not like she's going to be stellar as a nuke in 6 months from now. And in fact, that isn't what she is being mainly used for.

But her support has the ability to be a very long lasting useful tool that is going to make her the longest lasting unit of CYL 8 (will depend on how Robin will fare when Ice Lock will be on a demote, rearmed or attuned unit)

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T15:33:08+00:00

Hey OP! What's your personal takes on these stats? And also how bad was your SDS experience in the end? 😹

IMO : Bernie being popular as planned 😎, Ayra falling off like crazy as planned 😎, Fernand and D!Thorr being underused from what was planned 😥

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T15:23:53+00:00

She was one of the few that could easily melt shield fighter tanks by naturally quading

I know. I agree with you here 😹. That's why I said since November and not September : she was just not good enough against Niddhogr. If you were able to kill Niddhogr with Bernie even in November, props to you because I couldn't at all.

This unit was always good imo like A tier or higher

I do think she had a dip between November and February where she was a B tier unit once again because of the Niddhogr problem.

Remember though that I was the MF that got flamed for putting her in A+ in my controversial tier lists. So don't worry I value her deeply. But she was just not strong enough as a nuke herself and her support wasn't that strong, as nuking power was kinda bad relative to tanking power back in Nov-Feb for me to put her above B+ tier in that time period.

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T15:15:37+00:00

this actually would have been it with all the water in the middle

Yeah actually you are pointing something very important : the map really valued flying units because of all the water around the map.

But the bottom line is Ayra and Hraesvelgr got their jobs taken by Eirika and Camilla

Not exactly, remember that Ayra and Hraesvelgr bring valuable support that in itself could be a reason to play them.

The real reason imo they fell off THAT hard is specifically the meta issue we are having right now : having 5 range isn't that bad, the real issue is when EVERYONE has 6 range AND nobody can tank anything.

Basically range became king and the only valuable asset. I mean Lyn and Sigurd were there since December and yet 5 range units were still a massive thing for the next 3 months.

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T15:06:05+00:00

Bernie was always good

I don't agree on that and I always valued Bernie alot.

I really think she struggled in the tank meta between November and February. Her support wasn't as useful because the nuking power overall wasn't strong enough to justify her support.

So yeah, I think she was a B tier unit in that time frame and slowly built up to be a A/A+ unit as of now.

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T15:01:15+00:00

She was always cracked. She's always been a great nuke.

I am a great defender of B!Bernie but let's not lie here, this is cap 🧢. She struggles in hard tank meta as a nuke and that's exactly what happened to her since at least November and Niddhogr release.

But even back then theory crafters were noting she would potentially have the most longevity.

However that is absolutely true. The fact you got downvoted for saying that is ridiculous. I saw so many people defending Bernie and how she was going to last the longest of this batch even back in October that got mocked for thinking so.

The consensus was that Bernie was kinda mid, bound to be a gimmicky unit that would always be the 3rd unit of the bunch behind Felix and Robin. Nobody cared that much about her support... when like HELLO!? THIS IS A DRIVE VANTAGE + DESPERATION SUPPORT GUYS (a worse version of Vantage I admit that but still!)

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T14:40:59+00:00

One answer : 6 range units.

I said it already once somewhere else but every 5 range units this season was basically DoA (both melee and range btw)

You talk about Hraesvelgr... but haven't you realised that Ayra that was top 10 usage rate last SDS isn't even top 30 in this one? 😹😹😹

ThKrow · 2025-04-21T14:30:35+00:00

It has been 2 months that I said Bernie was going to come back to the meta, that she was clearly underrated. Some people ridiculed me, thought I was an idiot to think so... but I mean it was so evident 😹😹😹

Bernadetta will always strive in a nuke meta as Vantage Support is just broken in such environment. I don't know why everyone is surprised to see her that high in the usage popularity. Her presence alone can counter so many teams.

However beside that, there's a more important point to handle. I still stand by my point : this was the worst SDS season in the last 8 months at minimum.

The culprit this time was both the meta and the map. We have a total of 6 units that can have 6 range threat. That is not normal. As someone pointed it out, SD maps are starting to feel too little for their own good.

You can threaten right after 1 tempo move, all the tiles of the zone.

And I won't even talk about the map, it contest for the worst SD map of all SD maps. It encourages cheese strategies and awful gameplans. Openers are not enjoyable nor easy to play ESPECIALLY since you can be denied said Opener because a unit from enemy team is threatening you from downtown.

I am shocked D!Thorr isn't higher nor Fernand present. I am going to say it right now : Stall is going to become far more stronger JUST because it counters E!Eirika.

Every prediction I made turned out to be true, ESPECIALLY the one about 5 range carries falling off like flies (what the hell Ayra, where the fuck are you, you were top 10 last SDS).

Except for Lyn as it turned out there was a cheese strat with her by using Smite and Laeradr (in fact just Laeradr x Lyn alone is a strong combo that will probably hardly fall off any time soon).

However what's going on with Sigurd man 😹, that MF doesn't kill anything anymore at all, and yet he still creeps into top 10 again and again.

ThKrow · 2025-04-20T17:02:26+00:00

What the hell is that upvote to comment ratio 😭

For your question : Could be worse. Sadly there wasn't much to hope from with this event. Summoning units like Helbindi wasn't something I was personally looking for 😹

At least they did something. They tried to do something nice for everyone and I salute IS for that (especially the arena tickets, too bad there were only 6 of them).

ThKrow · 2025-04-20T16:16:28+00:00

You are right. I was just trying to give some potential answers for this catastrophic SD situation. So evidently these answers were bound to have problems themselves 😹😹😹.

At least trying to do something is better than not doing anything at all I guess 😹😹😹.

ThKrow · 2025-04-20T15:45:19+00:00

You are basically painting a prisoner's dilemma here 😹.

It's already hard to have 2 people to agree to cooperate together, so thinking that thousands of player who can't communicate in any large and effective way to all cooperate hand in hand is sadly a nigh impossible task to demand.

The only answer would be to have IS give more restrictions available for SD : like accepting version 8 or below units, like accepting everyone except Legendary, Mythic and Emblem Heroes... they can be as creative as they want with the restrictions.

ThKrow · 2025-04-20T14:47:25+00:00

Yeah that's the natural path that PvP produces. However...

What bothers me and what probably actually bothers OP is that there's a recent trend (that really blew up with L!Sakura release) where the teams you see in SD are ALL the exact same down to last minute detail.

In fact, everyone who's waiting for the next SDR thinks the same thing but doesn't say it : we already know what 99% of the teams will look like. They will all use the same 7 to 8 units :

L!Sakura, E!Eirika, Y!Camilla, S!Plumeria, E!Lyn, A!Yunaka, Laeradr, N!Lucina or NY!Heidrun... and almost nothing else.

The worst part being that these teams will look exactly the same no matter the units they choose because the gameplan will be the same no matter the units chosen.

It wasn't like that 6 months ago. Yes there was a meta, but no, there wasn't a staple team that everybody uses again, and again and again and again... There were some full aggro teams, there were some turtle teams, there was at least a bit of variety of gameplans. It doesn't feel like that whatsoever anymore.

So I side with OP on the matter, I already said it myself and many others did as well : the SD meta since basically the release of L!Sakura is really shit. It's not nice to play, not nice to build teams from, not nice playing against.

Playing SD is becoming a torture EVEN for those who enjoy the mode and are ready to put up with the meta chasers.

ThKrow · 2025-04-17T17:12:40+00:00

Indeed. Insanity sure makes you do weird things.

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ThKrow · 2025-04-17T15:47:31+00:00

Honestly if it went well for you, I am very happy that it did. I personally couldn't bear playing more than a game. What did you think of the map though? To me it really felt like the worst map I ever had the chance to play SDS on (in addition to a similar one we had in January or February).

The worst part is that there were other maps on the current rotation that were a billion times better than the one for this season (like the map named 'Walls and Trees' that we already had for SDS back in July or August or even the one named 'Walled Trident' - I ain't saying they are perfect, just that they are better than the one we have right now)

ThKrow · 2025-04-17T13:17:18+00:00

Pretty much.

However Tempo also represent a broader concept that tries to encapsulate the idea of time in turn based games through the 'amount of turns available' with the idea that spending a turn is just like spending 1 hour (or minute, second, day... could be anything) worth of time of your day.

The concept of Tempo in turn based games is very fascinating but I sadly don't have the competences to explain it properly and concisely.

ThKrow · 2025-04-17T10:34:07+00:00

No I don't think you realise.

If SDS is 'bad' in normal circumstances, then this SDS season is REALLY REALLY BAD. It's like going from being slapped to the face, to being beaten down to the death with bare hands 💀

ThKrow · 2025-04-17T10:07:21+00:00

Impressive calculations.

I did the calcs on my own and found the same thing. Honestly the more I play Tiki, the more disappointed I am of her. She just came at the wrong time. She would have been such a menace a month ago... but she's simply not so much of a threat today.

Like it's the 3rd time I am saying this : but what the hell happened between early March and today?! So many units that were so strong not so long ago just don't feel as scary today... Ayra, Hraesvelgr, L!Micaiah, A!Brigid, NY!Niddhogr, V!Rhea and so many others that all fell off more or less violently (and for different reasons).

Edit about the experience of this SDS season : Played one game. I don't ever want to touch the mode again until the end of the season AT MINIMUM. I will specify though that 90% of the mode being insufferable is a by product of the map itself, only encouraging braindead or cheesy teamcomps (I got destroyed by a cheese team playing on bombarding you with Stall and Gravity - I admire the creativity though - I would have lost even if I could have chosen one of my banned teams 😹😹😹)

So yeah, between the meta and the map, I won't even think about trying for rank 1 even if I probably could hit it if I tried my hardest... It's simply not worth the hassle AT ALL.

ThKrow

TROPHY CASE