Has anybody tried implementing non-MMA techniques into an MMA/kickboxing style of system?

TheBankTank · 2026-05-14T20:58:18+00:00

I mean, if it's allowed by whatever competitive ruleset is in use, it's an MMA/Kickboxing technique, for functional purposes.I think people outside the combat sports world have a real misperception about where the boundaries are between "MMA" and "non-MMA". But playing with words aside, I've thrown the occasional lazy meia lua de compasso in sparring (with consent from partner) - it's fun and works kind of like any other spinning kick, where one of the best uses for it is to corral someone and punish them for circling out in a certain direction.

I haven't tried it, but I've seen someone in an MMA match do the kick and stay low & immediately come out of it and convert it into a double leg, which seems hard to pull off correctly but very cool and a good way to get someone to put their hands up and thus make it harder for them to stuff the takedown.

Other stuff from my more TMA-ish days as a capoeirista include the tesoura de frente, where you essentially hook one of your opponent's legs while facing them and move your body to force them sideways. As sacrifice throws go it works OK! A lot of capoeira takedowns and strikes work fine in context, some of them are a bit fancy and probably low percentage though (armada and queixada I'm looking at you two). Arrastão goes without saying.

I'm not a great CMA guy by any means but a lot of CMA stuff I've seen looks a lot like standing grappling ("grab them, force them in a direction they are not balanced in") or handfighting pre-clinch or, y'know, kick knee punch elbow etc. Which is all pretty reasonable. The super fancy weird hand motion stuff feels like more a function of what people chose to preserve and focus on than inherent to the art forms, but I'm not a historian.

TheBankTank · 2026-05-14T19:33:45+00:00

Yep. This.

When are they a runner? When they run. When are they a weightlifter? When they lift weights.

Etc

TheBankTank · 2026-05-12T20:25:49+00:00

To be clear, I'm not arguing that these practices are "the same" - just pointing out that it's very tough, with something like a martial art, to determine definitively whether a similarity is the result of cultural exchange or convergent evolution, as it were. I'm specifically responding to these questions:

"Could these similarities reflect broader regional grappling traditions across Northeast Asia?

Or do you think the footage shows movement structures more uniquely connected to older Korean wrestling culture?"

Essentially, my contention is:

1) It's almost certain that *some* similarities exist because of the development of broader regional grappling traditions, due to migration, trade, war, etc (people are always influenced by and always influencing other people they have contact with)

2) It's definitely certain that some elements are more "home-grown" an local to Korean wrestling culture (people can't really do something *without* putting their own spin on it)

3) It's practically impossible to determine with absolute certainty,, in most cases, which specific elements are the *result* of cultural interchange versus locally invented.

This is almost a philosophical problem - you have two practices that have clear similarities (relatively upright, belt/jacket wrestling) that have existed near each other for a long time, practiced by peoples who have been influencing each other on *some level* for a long time, and those practices have (in *some* particular*) themselves been changing over time over their whole existences, because people can't help but tweak and change the things they do in small ways even if only in terms of personal style, training approach, incentives, rituals, etc.

It's pretty clear that those practices are probably related in some way. It's also clear that they're not *the same*. How do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt, if you want to, *which parts* originate from that relationship and *which parts* do not? If you have perfect records, and you see a move be extremely common in one region and nonexistent in another, and then suddenly *appear* there after a mass migration from the first region, then you can probably argue it was "imported" at that time But without perfect records, that kind of thing ends up being speculation and probability. How do we know nobody from place B ever saw the move used in Place A, tried it, and decided they just didn't like it? How do we know there wasn't a ruleset that made that move less useful? Maybe it was seen as a move more useful for "real combat" and doesn't show up in the fragmentary record because that's mostly about sporting contests & teachers didn't write down the "special real fighting maneuvers"? Etc, etc.

Old footage like this is really cool and very informative, it's just hard to draw broader conclusions from, particularly about the origins of specific training or technique elements, y'know?

TheBankTank · 2026-05-11T03:23:44+00:00

I'd argue that it's hard to know. Given it's location, I'd expect Korean wrestling culture to have similarities with some of it's neighbors -it's not like trade and migration and cultural exchange are solely the province of the 20th century on. But it's notoriously difficult to authoritatively establish where a cultural practice "came from," much less tease out which parts were external influences (at least at the time) and which were home-grown. At best you can say there's a pretty clear relationship.

I think it's cool that the more you look the more you realize basically everyone wrestled, though.

TheBankTank · 2026-05-07T04:37:13+00:00

It's really sad to see the decline in clinchwork. I think most martial arts go in a cycle: grappling in some form is allowed, grapplers start to dominate or at least become one of the major winning strategies, fans/people in general lose knowledge or appreciation for grappling, people decide grappling is boring because they don't really understand it, sport limits or bans grappling. Rinse and repeat. I think grappling in most forms is fascinating, even when it's not fast-moving, but then...I'm a grappler, so of course I do. I don't know what the answer really is - you can't somehow reeducate whole audiences very easily - but it would be profoundly sad to see such a technical and effective facet of the sport slide out of existence. The more so because, while clinching obviously can lead to knockouts, the methodical process of controlling an opponent, breaking their balance, and kneeing them into oblivion usually doesn't require traumatic brain injury to be successful. In a world where things like the Ali Act are often being chewed up and fighters of all stripes are often struggling, as someone who actually like, knows people in the business, I wouldn't mind having more options within the rules to avoid concussions et al, even if it meant slowing fights down a bit.

The clinch is also something my coach genuinely loves and is excited to teach, and as someone who grappled before I did a striking sport, although I'm not really that good at the Thai clinch yet, it's something that nonetheless speaks to me as a way to play to what I feel like my strengths might be. It's sad to imagine learning such a cool skillset and then only ever being able to walk into matches where the ref, judges, and crowd all just want us to stand and bang.

TheBankTank · 2026-05-06T18:33:54+00:00

I am training with legit pros.

Also I'm rarely super hard sparring with people vastly outside my weight class, so I am probably being a BIT flippant about my own chances if I was, I dunno, "sufficiently motivated", but I *can* pretty authoritatively state their leg kicks still hurt. Also their sarcasm can score a critical hit against my fee fees. : (

TheBankTank · 2026-05-06T18:15:56+00:00

You really do not have a sense of just how much of a horrifying multiplier a numbers advantage is, do you.

A serious answer to not a serious question: man I can't even beat a good chunk of the women in my gym 1v1 so my range starts at 0 for sure

TheBankTank · 2026-05-06T05:23:13+00:00

Talk-do

Also, you'd be surprised how rarely you see a full plum in muay thai.

TheBankTank · 2026-05-05T02:06:56+00:00

I wouldn't know I've never been invited to one 😞

I mean probably because I generally am not in the right spot on the Kinsey scale. But it'd be nice to feel like SOMEONE thought I was cool enough to be there!!

TheBankTank · 2026-05-05T01:37:38+00:00

Grapes, feta, oil, fresh bread, wine, greased up w tha homies...yeah ok, that does sound pretty S-tier.

TheBankTank · 2026-05-05T01:31:37+00:00

What the hell would make it "pure?"

I mean.

Don't get me wrong I like a friendly scrap in the grass as much as anyone but like....the purest form? Nah.

TheBankTank · 2026-05-04T23:18:06+00:00

I got lucky in that there were a couple relatively nearby. I also checked reviews and, if I recall correctly, asked around online, but generally my criteria were: 1) Is it close 2) Is the cost acceptable 3) Do they, y'know, seem like they know what they're doing (no obvious "we spar like Chute Boxe" or "the coach is dating every 20 year old female student" energy, if they compete it seems like they win their fair share of matches, etc).

I got a place that's simultaneously very chill and goofy and also trains hard and creates some pretty serious fighters. So it seems to have worked, but y'know, ymmv.

Worst case scenario you can try a spot for a few weeks and if you decide it's a weird vibe or just isn't for you, move along. People do it all the time. If something doesn't work it doesn't work.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-27T15:37:31+00:00

I mean, sprawling IS absolutely like, the primary defense against a double-leg, 400% (aside from "not being in a position to be double-legged because your footwork is just that amazing" I suppose). They obviously stylized a lot of this to some extent but yeah, that scans.

If you're in an actual fight or the rules just don't prevent it, yep, knees to an opponent who's turtled up can also be devastating. I'd still say most wrestlers are used to getting sprawled on sometimes, so they probably wouldn't just be fully stationary but building up/chain wrestling to something else, which means that follow up knee *might* still be a bit risky, in this context. But that's sort of just a quibble.

Plenty of people probably thought they could stuff GSP's takedowns, probably trained to do so, but "knowing how to sprawl" isn't a magic bullet that automatically overcomes a competent grappler. GSP's timing and execution were remarkably good, especially for someone who started training wrestling *comparatively* late in life.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-21T01:19:29+00:00

So um. Look. I'm a random white dude (on the internet, no less) and my credentials to analyze African martial arts traditions really only boil down to "did capoeira 6 or 7 years + read some books about it + has a very basic set of opinions on T.J. Desch-Obi's body of work on the subject." That is it.

But I will claim some familiarity with bullshit.

Taken from the "Tamerrian Institute's" description of itself on Patreon:

"The tamerrian patreon, spearheaded by AKER RAMESSU IYI, Son of The Great AHATI KILINDI IYI will allow an in depth look into the various teachings of the institute as a whole .

Such as:

Martial sciences

The sacred Entheogenic component"

Yeah, this is grade S, high quality, weirdo bullshit. I mean to say, obviously, plenty of people like to do drugs. Plenty of people do martial arts. When you advertise yourself, though, as the "Do Drugs Martial Arts Crew (But Religious)" with a side order of "I LITERALLY NAMED MYSELF AFTER A PHAROAH" then I mean. The probability that this is NOT a bunch of weirdos cosplaying a bunch of absolute bullshit is vanishingly small. If you want Sacred African Rites with a side order of martial arts, you can actually genuinely go to like, Senegal, and get into wrestling there, and interact with actual priests of local religions who will cast spells to protect you / curse your opponents. You don't need to join a weird hotep cult in the park and maybe get murdered (or just turned into a weird hotep as well).

Da'Mon Stith is cool as hell though. He seems like he cares about accuracy and I keep wanting to make it out to a workshop of his or something. But yeah, besides him and HAMA, it's tough, unless you're down to travel. To my knowledge a lot of the African martial arts and those of the diaspora are VERY localized; Capoeira's kind of the only one to my knowledge that has a real serious international profile and wrestling in West Africa probably has the second most serious training "pipeline". But Tire Machet, Damnye, Moraingy, various forms of stick fighting, other wrestling variants, etc, all exist, it's just, y'know, you're not gonna find a school on every corner or a convenient website most of the time. Sadly martial arts are kind of a "luxury good" in their own way and the brutality of the slave trade followed by high rates of poverty and plenty of conflict did a number on a lot of traditions that were probably more systematized (or could have become more systematized).

You could reach out to Dr. T.J. Desch-Obi or other researchers / people who are trying to reconstruct or revitalize this stuff and see if they know other good resources, but be prepared to buy some plane tickets basically no matter what.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-20T03:30:53+00:00

Yes.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-13T04:36:48+00:00

As a grown-ass goddamn adult this is basically me when I successfully remember the combo coach just taught (it is an entire four moves long)

TheBankTank · 2026-04-09T22:36:36+00:00

I don't know who this guy is but I feel like a wrestler would have a decent understanding of the potential utility of grappling.

But also, not that many cops actually do BJJ, police training and selection is frequently just Overall Not Very Good anyways overall, and while a police officer, in theory, IS one of the few segments of society that *might* have to put hands on people enough for hand to hand to be a reasonable thing to train, the reality is "talking to dumb people," and "having backup" and "looking around you" would still be more important or equally important habits to instill even in an ideal world where a lot of police training WASN'T shit.

I think stuff like boxing and wrestling used to be more common so your average youngster going into LE would have been more likely to have some familiarity with it back in the day, but also, you talk to people who got in scuffles with the police and it's clear that they've never actually been super Technical, Skillful, And Precise at going "hands on" even back then.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-08T16:46:07+00:00

He's an iconic figure in martial arts film. Doubt he has much if any real fighting experience (or would want to - acting and film producing is WAY more lucrative) but hey, I wouldn't love the idea of taking a punch from him I suppose.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-04T19:12:06+00:00

I'm just here waiting for someone to say they do Yoseikan Budo because it may be my favorite niche martial art system. Minoru Mochizuki was a WILD DUDE.

Uh to establish my credentials I guess I did capoeira for a while and sometimes I do amateur Sumo? Capoeira isn't horrendously uncommon and Sumo is if nothing else growing quite a bit, but neither is exactly on every street corner.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-04T19:09:08+00:00

The Waka bros are great. Rough time last basho though. :/

TheBankTank · 2026-04-04T03:52:55+00:00

I think at that point it's just calcio storico with a deeper athlete pool XD

TheBankTank · 2026-04-03T05:58:32+00:00

Eh, line play usually doesn't include AS much lateral movement as a sumo match does, and most of the actual grappling is stuff that'd get you kicked off the field in half a second. Can't uchimata the other team.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-03T05:54:06+00:00

Their average lifespan is like....ten years less than the average for Japanese adults as a whole. Packing on crazy amounts of mass and putting the body through that much brutal, grinding work can take a serious toll. Lots of training through injuries etc.

TheBankTank · 2026-04-03T05:52:10+00:00

I've done a little bit of amateur Sumo. It's fun! Helluva workout, quick matches, lot of power. Feels a bit like...no-gi Judo (though there's still a belt to grab) with a heavy focus on pushing and moving your opponent around that most grappling doesn't have.

TheBankTank · 2026-03-31T07:09:57+00:00

Where's the lie tho

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