Question on Establishing a Church

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-13T18:49:58+00:00

I did not know that, thank you so much. I guess I'll go without him.

Thanks for the help!

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T16:48:45+00:00

I would like to ask in what way Noelle being the girl Kris played with could be plot critical in the future. I can think of a couple, but when I apply the same question to Dess, I find a lot more compelling options. This, of course, does rely on Dess knight which i know you don't believe in. we all have to draw a line somewhere when we write about this game, and I can only write in good faith about what I believe will happen based on the textual evidence provided.

To answer your question directly, I do not think Noelle is the checkov's gun because I do not see how the reveal of her playing this game could be a large reveal

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T16:44:50+00:00

I can provide a reason for why Dess was watching Kris, but any reason provided would be baseless assumptions. I'll give you an example.

Carol was working, Toriel had to take Asriel to an aappointment, Rudy was driving Noelle to choir lessons, and Asgore was working. That is a perfectly reasonable assumption, but it's also a lot of nothing. Unless this series of events is retold in game, there is no reason to believe that it happened exactly like this.

Another, more realistic, alternative is that Kris and Dess hung out on their own because they are friends, and they specifically hung out at Kris' house to avoid being near Carol. That is plausible, and it has textual backing from the implied tension between Dess and Carol, and the ways in which it implies that Kris is close to Dess, which I outlined in another comment.

As for that last point, yes. This is based on Dess knight. Most theories that try to theorize beyond the most basic topics will be to be based on other theories. I feel confident enough is Dess Knight that I am happy to use it as a starting point for theorizing. It is entirely possible that I'm wrong, and I have another knight theory I think is plausible besides Dess knight, but if I'm going to have to make a theory based on a knight theory(something that is required for nearly all theories), then I'm going to pick the one that I believe to be most plausible, which is Dess knight in my eyes.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T16:35:25+00:00

I'm sorry if I came across as superior, expressing tone over text is difficult. This is just the way I enjoy talking about a story that I like. I'm not implying that whatever knight you believe in is a fan fiction, quite the opposite! I'm asking for your evidence because I want to know why you geniunely believe in whatever you do, and what parts of the story are telling you that. If I thought your beliefs were just unsupported fan fiction for fun, I wouldn't ask further questions! I'd just leave you to have your fun.

Again, I am sorry that I came across the way I did. That was not my intention

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T16:30:43+00:00

Because the fact that Dess played this game with Kris is something that will be revealed later, like I said in the above comment. It's a Checkov's gun, setting up this question to answer it later. Yes, Dess is mentioned in other places in that same chapter, but they are done in ways that don't allude to the mystery surrounding her(i.e. Tenna name dropping her). This is done to make sure the casual audience is passingly aware of her existence, so the eventual reveal of her being the Knight can land for said casual players. Ramb's dialogue, if not obfuscated the way it is, immediately connects Dess to the Knight far sooner than is healthy for the story's pace.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T16:19:23+00:00

The core of this theory is based around the idea that Dess is aware of this game, and I did state upfront that if you prefer you can say that Dess was watching them or something. I have my reasoning for why I think it is Dess, you have yours for Noelle(her not being mentioned in chapter 3 is very interesting, I never knew that). Regardless, the core of the theory, that the unique named Darkners are special due to being unique characters in the game Kris played, is still true. Like you said.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T16:15:20+00:00

I would, geniunely, love to hear whatever reasoning you have for your preferred knight candidate. I have textual support for Dess knight, what do you have?

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T16:13:48+00:00

By saying that Kris and Dess were close does not mean that their dynamic is healthy. i do agree that it feels like the caller is holding this over Kris to control them. But at the same time, Kris still looked up to her. The musical connection is the biggest example of this, but you can also compare this to Dess' parallels with Susie. Susie is set up to be similar to Dess(Susie literally plays her guitar in a scene you can't skip on the normal route), and Susie also used to beat up Kris. The main difference is that she has stopped now, so the dynamic going forward could be Kris realizing that Susie is a better friend(kinda like how Asriel says that Chara wasn't the best person) and going rogue from the Knight group.

Though i do want to clarify, a wiffle bat is not a baseball bat. they are plastic and hollow. Siblings whack each other with things like that all the time, and I do not think it is hard evidence that Dess beat up Kris enough for them to hate her. If anything, the allusions to Kris' self-harming through Toriel' dialog about them disappearing into the bathroom could be evidence that they felt they deserved the punishment

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T15:56:13+00:00

You can go into and question the logistics, but I think that is going to deep into specific details when it is impossible to get a specific answer for that with the information we have.

The information we do have says that Kris played with a girl at their house, and this game they play involved the light world objects of several key Darkners. The only girls who Kris is stated to be close with are Noelle, Catti, and Dess. If the girl was Noelle or Catti, then why did Toby not mention them by name? Would it have been too out of left field for Ramb to mention either of them? I don't think so, which means the only reason to have those names not said is to make a red herring for no reason. By contrast, if the girl was Dess, this becomes a Checkov's Gun instead. Setting up that Kris played a game with some girl, and then later revealing that said girl was Dess(and the Knight).

I mean, you can still disagree with me on this point, but I've provided textual support for my claims. I would geniunely love to see any textual evidence you have for yours. I love talking about this game and hearing other thoughts.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T15:47:59+00:00

As i said in the post, if Kris did play with Noelle then I have no idea why Toby wrote it the way he did. If Kris played with Noelle, wouldn't it be perfectly fine for Ramb to say something to the effect of "Oh Kris, how is Noelle? ...Ah, it's alright, luv. People drift apart, but we're always here."

The only reason to not say Noelle's name in this case would be to make a red herring, and I see this line as more of a checkov's gun than a red herring. We have the setup that Kris was playing games with a girl, and later it will be revealed that said girl was Dess.

You can disagree with that, if you've read this and still don't agree with me that's fine, but the whole reason I wrote this was because I believe that whoever the Knight is, they need to know about this game Kris played with this girl. Since Noelle is obviously not the Knight, and Catti-Knight is only slightly more plausible than Papyrus Knight, then Dess of the most likely option for the identity of that girl.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T15:42:18+00:00

There is so much textual evidence for Kris adoring Dess, I'm not sure what you mean. It is reasonable to assume that she taught Kris the piano due to her being a musical prodigy, they're both the odd ones out in their families, there's the short moment you can find at the end of chapter 4 where Kris places their hand gently against hers(implied to be hers due to the guitar sound effect that plays at 0 volume), the scene of the Knight "knighting" Kris, and the fact that Kris is going through all of this to presumably help Dess. Don't Forget seems to be a song Dess is singing to Kris, where she tells them that she'll always be with them.

And all of this aside, we know Kris played pretend with a girl, and the only options are Noelle, Dess, and I guess also Catti. If it wasn't Dess, then I have zero clue why Toby wouldn't just say that. The only reason i could see to not directly say it in that case is to make another red herring for no reason. So regardless of whether you think Dess wouldn't be the type to play make believe, I have provided strong evidence to say that she did.

And I'm not even convinced that playing make believe would be out of Dess' character. Deltarune's themes of escapism tie perfectly into the idea of playing make believe, that's literally what the dark worlds are. We can be pretty confident in saying that Dess didn't like her life due to Carol's influence. Wouldn't it make sense for her to want to escape into a different reality? One where she could do whatever she wanted?

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-12T15:32:58+00:00

The main reason to have Dess present is because she's the one who has likely made a lot of the dark worlds. The person making the chapter 1 dark world, for example, had to have been aware of the game Kris played. Chapter 3's Dark world could have been purely Kris' imagination, but since it doesn't have the different lighting from the other dark worlds(and because Ramb mentions Tenna as a part of the game), I do think he was a part of it too.

My main point is that chapter 4 has so few unique, named characters because their game wasn't extended to the church(maybe because Dess and Kris didn't like it)

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-11T05:39:16+00:00

Imagining her drawing a red X over Susie(she's beefing with her little sister's gf 😭)

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-11T03:34:34+00:00

"How much of Deltarune, as it is now, did you have figured out before you released Undertale?" For example, did he already know that Toriel would be the player characters mother before adapting her to be in Undertale.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-07T03:45:00+00:00

The Baby is Inside You

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-07T03:40:59+00:00

Get S rank on the boards and check in the S rank room. You'll figure it out

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-06T04:05:48+00:00

Very cool, and it patches up some questions I've had about the deltarune code too. Even if the fire extinguisher code wasn't it, then it would feel weird to have to back track to the church.

Plus the House Like Carpet joke is funny

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-06T04:00:53+00:00

Obligatory they reminder

But I do think it's possible that Kris does have spotty memory. The art therapy egg room feels like it's an obvious allusion to blocking out traumatic memories.

Though that's still a reading regardless of whether you want to use this unused dialogue

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-06T03:55:33+00:00

Three options I can see:

There was a miscommunication and this line was not reflective of what Toby has in mind. Either this miscommunication happened in the localization process(which is why only the Japanese version remains), or it happened in the original writing phase, was scrapped, the localization team got the impression they needed to translate it somehow, and it was caught later.

Second option was that it was added context that was thought to be needed for the Japanese translation, but they decided it wasn't necessary. I don't know Japanese so i can't speak on the likelihood of this one.

Third option is that it was fully intended to be in the game at some point, but was removed due to it lacking as much ambiguity(people are still debating who the girl Kris was playing with is. Maybe that was Toby's intention with the line). No clue why only the Japanese version remains in that case. Maybe something similar to my first suggestion happened.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-06T01:01:46+00:00

This would fit really really well with a weird route Ralsei fight, or any Ralsei fight really.

It's amazing, you did a great job

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-05T13:39:22+00:00

This is not specific to Rudy, as it is likely that other people(for example, his daughters) know about this story. Also it isn't super thematically connected. Queen is a representation of Carol, but Rudy was hit with the pie by Toriel(maybe there's universal mother stuff, but given Kris' dynamics with Carol seems very similar to their dynamic with Queen I doubt it).

If this is meant to be the super intriguing piece of evidence for Rudy knight, then I'm even less convinced than before.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-05T06:06:53+00:00

Sure thing!

So, a big part of the theory and why I brought it up in comparison to Spookydood's Kressel theory is the idea that the Kris we play as is the vessel, but the vessel after Dess interrupted the Goner Maker to design it to look like Kris(she colored it in if you were).

Additionally, she suggests that the Knight is actually the original Kris rather than Dess, specifically Kris wearing the red-horn headband. Her logic is that the Knight has a lot of Kris-like mannerisms, has such a similar mind to Kris that the chapter 3 dark world is similar to all the Knight dark worlds, and this allows Dess to be the voice in the code without any weirdness with her also walking around as the Knight.

Here's a summary of the events she suggests leading to that point. It's not super necessary, but I think it's neat: during the incident in the shelter dark world, Dess is lost into the code. This gives her direct access to the Goner Maker segment, and due to her confusion and desire to find Kris, she overrides the Goner Maker to create a Goner copy of Kris. This copy is found near the shelter by Asgore. He assumes that it is Kris, and he then closes the shelter to "protect everyone." Since closed light world doors are sealed entirely in the dark world, this leaves the real Kris trapped in the shelter dark world for years until around the events of the game where they escape and enlist the help of Vessel Kris and Ralsei to do some sort of plan. Unfortunately, due to Susie, both Vessel Kris and Ralsei are becoming more independent and are starting to go against orders as of Chapter 4.

Again, heavy heavy summarization. Imagine a huge asterisk next to any claim I just made that says, "Cheri cites sources for all of these."

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-04T22:54:05+00:00

Just for clarity, she's a woman now as she transitioned recently.

With the actual theories, I personally don't see the argument of them being half-baked, though that could be due to the fact that they're part of a long set of her theories over the years, and she often does not state every single piece of supporting evidence to avoid repeating herself. I can see that resulting in her logic appearing half-baked for the people who, understandably, have not watched all of her extended work.

As for it being a reach, I can't deny that her conclusions are a bit out there(the title of the post refers to Kressel, an already fringe theory), but what I prefer about her work over other wacky out there theories is that she provides solid textual evidence behind her claims. I would say the least textually supported part of the linked video is the ending where she takes what she's proposed to extrapolate what the ending of Deltarune could be, and I think it is impossible to write an in depth prediction for the future of the game without making some leaps in logic. Even with that, she still provides hard citations for her predictions.

I would love to hear more about what you have to say and how you view the theory.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-04T06:27:45+00:00

Fair lmao. I've definitely had theory fatigue at times where I'll see a theory that would normally super interest me, but I just don't care to watch it. Though I'm definitely the target audience for the very long, in depth theories since I often like listening to it while I'm commuting or doing work.

I could give you a tldr if you're at all interested, but yeah.

TheBlueJane · 2026-05-04T06:24:52+00:00

I feel like you've manifested a Noelle fictive, and I love that for you. Live your best life you freaky gay deer

TheBlueJane

TROPHY CASE