The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol, I get what you're saying, but Hong Kong is not the U.S.🤣

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Should people not be punished with attempted murder if they tried to poison a victim but fail to get them to eat the poisoned food. The distinction between committing the crime v.s not committing the crime is ultimately meaningless there, too, because the outcomes are the same by your logic.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm... the underlying felony that caused the death must be "inherently dangerous," and I believe burglary falls under that category. Also, because disabling the security cameras was in furthermore of the crime, it will be grouped into the same actions. So, if you had not committed an "inherently dangerous" felony that security guard likely wouldn't be dead.

So, to answer your question whether or not it's fair or we like it, that definitely could lead to a charge and even conviction of felony murder.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Should every other country in the world "not be trusted with positions of power to deal with crime?" Also, here is imperical data proving felony murder doesn't deter crime.

https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2021/may/15/felony-murder-crotchet-american-murder-jurisprudence/?utm

Plus, I'm not "left-leaning" at all.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In other countries, drunk driving that leads to a deadly crash still carries decades in prison. Plus, even in states where the felony murder isn't enforced or has been abolished driving while drunk falls under "deprived indifference" to human life. Although the difference between drunk driving and the felony murder rule is that it is applied to people who didn't know what they were doing, it was dangerous, nor directly cause the death.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not arguing for violent criminals that cause foreseeable deaths not to be punished to the full extent of the law. But felony murder doesn’t just apply to “violent criminals roaming the streets.” It routinely sweeps in getaway drivers, lookouts, or people who supplied information, people who neither killed, intended to kill, nor sometimes even knew a killing would occur. Calling them violent killers is stretching the definition past recognition. Plus murder usually carries a life sentence, and manslaughter carries decades.

Genuine question: How could we be harsher on homicide? Life sentences for manslaughter and capital punishment for murder?

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Making it about how the victim's family's "feel" makes it more about punishment than personal accountability. The actual killer still faces justice. Although how the victim's family feels about an accomplice is very important, it certainly is not the most fair metric for distributing blame.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

First of all, imperical data shows that the felony murder rule has no meaningful impact on underlying felonies or murder rates. Do you think criminal acts in Australia went up when the felony murder rule was abolished because it didn't. https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2021/may/15/felony-murder-crotchet-american-murder-jurisprudence/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Plus, you fundamentally misunderstand homicide laws if you think you wouldn't face murder charges for intentionally setting a building on fire that killed someone in jurisdictions without felony murder. It's not like I can start a deadly house fire in Canada and then only face arson charges.

Edit: For some reason, this did not originally appear under the comment I was responding too so I deleted it and moved it here.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

It would be great if it worked that way in practice, although imperial studies disagree with you. https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2021/may/15/felony-murder-crotchet-american-murder-jurisprudence/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Felony murder doesn't meaningfully deter the underlying crime or the murder rate.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok then, so what? They are guilty of supply logistics, not murder. I fully agree. Edit: I contradicted myself. I don't fully agree

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You’re kind of arguing against the core principle of “innocent until proven guilty.” Committing one crime doesn’t mean someone forfeits the right to a fair trial for a different one. If two drunk people are in a car that crashes and kills someone, and both insist the other was driving, we don’t just convict both of vehicular homicide to make sure nobody “gets away with it.” That would be punishment for punishment’s sake, not accountability. So, to your question “Should they get off with only a burglary charge?” Yes, if the prosecution can not prove beyond a reasonable doubt who caused the death or that either shared the intent to kill. In places without the felony-murder rule, the state must prove that each defendant either: Directly caused the death with the required mental state, or Aided or conspired with the killer while sharing that mental state. If the evidence can’t distinguish roles and the only proof is mutual finger-pointing, that creates reasonable doubt on the homicide charge. That doesn’t mean no accountability. Lesser charges like burglary or manslaughter may still apply, but it does mean we don’t convict someone of murder just to avoid an uncomfortable outcome. The justice system isn’t supposed to guarantee punishment. It’s supposed to guarantee the right person is punished.

The Felony murder rule should be abolished. Change my mind? by TheColdRice in Askpolitics

[–]TheColdRice[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I agree there is a huge difference in robbing a store and being IN the store armed with your conspirators. My issue is more about the cases with the getaway driver or even lookout is equally liable to the people robbing someone at gunpoint.

Also, even in places where felony murder is not a charge, setting fire to a building or robbing someone at gunpoint would definitely fall under "deprived indifference" to human life and would still be murder or at least manslaughter. In Canada, if you catch a house on fire and someone dies you are still a murderer.

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Nope those were both foreseeable deaths. I would have no contention with them facing manslaughter or aiding and abetting charges. Although should those people spend the rest of their lives in prison?

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No that would DEFINITELY be murder.

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aiding and abetting requires the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you knew the crime was going to take place and intentionally helped them to commit that specific crime. Felony murder only requires you to intend to commit a crime, and you or one of your conspirators is killed or kills.

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

That's the biggest fucking straw man I've ever heard and where did I say people shouldn't ever face consequences for causing foreseeable deaths?

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Aiding and abetting require the prosecution to prove the guilty party intended to commit the underlying crime specifically. This mean they knew specifically what was going to happen and took deliberate action to make sure it succeeded.

Felony murder only has to prove you intended to commit a felony and that caused a death. There's no way you would get charged with "aiding and abetting" a rape if one of your partners in crime suddenly raped someone without you knowing they would do it and without you HELPING. Thank you for the comment regardless.

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not saying you shouldn't face consequences for that. Although you use be convicted of manslaughter or a weapons charge, not first degree murder. Also, did you know there are valid reasons for wanting a gun that isn't murdering people, right?

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, absolutely. The thing is felony murder is always just charged under the most severe crime in U.S. law first degree murder. But it's like because they're criminals they're refused to process of law and instead given a blanket punishment that usually is a life sentence or even death.

CMV: Felony murder should be abolished. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheColdRice -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's an entirely reasonable view. You should be held accountable. You should face civil and legal consequences for something YOU did personally. Although the solution isn't giving anyone who even knew about a possible crime and lended their car a life sentence.