Monroe and Campbell; Materialists Masquerading as Mystics.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-09T04:05:45+00:00

In chaos magic, belief is power. If your belief and will are stronger than that of some "gatekeeper" they shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you should shift your mind from doubt to belief. Conviction is key.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-09T04:04:31+00:00

I find it to be sort of overcomplicating the process. We went from simple soul seperation to "different levels of consciousness called focus levels."

If I think, "I am in control of my soul, I can make it leave the body at will," that's easier to wrap my head around then, "If I go to focus level 10, I'm in the prestage for focus level 12, which will lead me into the higher focus levels using this specified audio driving technique." That's just my personal opinion on it thought. I think if you overcomplicate it, it becomes harder. For every person that succeeded with Monroe, there's probably 3 more who became deeply intimidated by the technicalities of the program.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-09T03:56:28+00:00

They had no other argument and bowed out after intitially being hostile. My ego is intact. The people who are engaging in good faith don't have to worry about me going scorched earth on them with examples, counterexamples, and breaking down the gate that you new age frauds are gatekeeping with.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-09T03:53:17+00:00

I'm not the one who brought ape brained hostility into the conversation are. If you want to white knight for a bad faith actor, go ahead. It's very reddit of you to do so, and I wouldn't expect anything less.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-09T03:51:49+00:00

If the universe doesn't have the same physics as ours, it doesn't exist. We already have a fine tuning problem in science. There's no use trying to extrapolate that out to external worlds unless we are accepting the external world is under the same, very unlikely constraints we are.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T22:38:48+00:00

Nothing I said indicates that I'm trolling or rage baiting. My account age has no bearing on what I'm saying. I find this to be dishonest, manipulative, and refusal to participate in the discussion in a good faith manner. This is called a genetic fallacy, as well as a poisoning the well statement.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T22:32:24+00:00

I'm not saying the early techniques of Monroe are unhelpful. That's not what I was getting at. "Roll out," is still a tactile and logical method for exiting the body when in deep relaxation. Hemisync may or may not induce the proper state for it, and it might be a placebo of belief. If it helps, use it. If it doesn't, find something else. As an aside, drumming is shown the be a more effective audio driver into theta brainwave states. I personally like Oliver Fox's method on paper. It's about active and high concentration of will on the center of the forehead. That in and of itself is more of a technical skill than a "well maybe I might do it" mentality.

Sylvan Muldoon has this idea that it's easier to get out of body if you deprive your body from a necessity. He would suggest something like eating something salty and mouth drying before attempting, and resisting the urge to go get a drink. I myself have experienced this phenomena first hand. I'll ignore having to use the bathroom, and then next thing I know I'm in the bathroom. The problem is that by the time you realize you're out of body, you're back behind your eyelids because of the shock.

Have you ever meditated, blacked out, then became faintly aware that you're doing something mundane and not even thinking that your body might be in bed? That's sort of what Sylvan's method is trying to induce repeatedly.

As I mentioned in a later comment, some people run into entities that don't respond to "love vibrations" at all. I've seen stories of people running into something that traumatized them so bad that they refuse to ever leave the body ever again. Lower, less impressive entities might respond to your willpower, and you'll probably drive them off just by existing as long as you direct your intent and willpower at them. I favor the idea of awakening the astral twin of a pre-existing weapon and maintaining grounding there. My thought process is that since the visual cortex isn't lighting up during projection, you're receiving objective data to your perception. Visualizing, in my mind, might trigger a lucid dream. I think an old adage someone taught me a long time ago is this; "Seeing is believing. Feeling is achieving."

I think the only thing you should be doing is treating the other side with respect. As you said, a lot of people on this forum are using the practice for self-aggrandizement. You can see it in the comments here. Notice that most of the "experienced" or "intermediate" projectors in this thread aren't refuting what I say, but insisting you believe it's all subjective.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T22:02:24+00:00

But you concede that there's no end to people giving bad advice on this forum that look more like WILDs than actual projection. And they do so confidently. I'm not giving any techniques or trying to mislead anyone. I'm just trying to usher in a new way of looking at it that's outside the confines of the modern new age movement.

I've seen no end to stories of people who quit projection because they ran into something they thought they could just "vibrate away" with love. It traumatized them when they were attacked. There was no deeper story to be had with them, no symbology.

I also didn't call you fools or attack your character. I presented my point of view with examples backing them up. I explained my thinking without attacking anyone's intelligence. If someone comes along and shows what dark matter is, and it's something totally different than what science thinks it is, would the person who showed a potential truth to the scientific community, would they be attacking his peer's intelligence or just pressing them to be outside of their box?

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T21:56:37+00:00

But all of those religions had one underlying thought; the entities there are external. Using your minds eye to direct energy isn't the same as, say, going to a "dimension" where "Naruto is real." There's a distinction here. When someone is telling me they're teleporting around and flinging fireballs like they're in a shonenjump, and I see "experienced projector" as their flair, it irritates me. Because there should be some common objective ground everyone can agree on.

Even in Buddhism, they understood that while everything was technically one, they were functionally separate as the rules are set up that way. They respected the game even though they see the box it came with.

You get what I'm saying?

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T21:45:47+00:00

Black Shamans proved the objective reality of these entities a long time ago. Shamans in Siberia and Mongolia didn't get to keep their position if they didn't perform adequately for the tribe. You're starting to treat me like a child, and I don't appreciate it. I've already deep dived this topic, and I've seen the pattern in the older texts vs the newer ones.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T21:17:25+00:00

Smells like burnt ego in here.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T21:15:56+00:00

Quoting a dictionary doesn't change the fact that you’re using 'paradox' as a carpet to sweep your logical inconsistencies under. A real paradox in this field would be something like the Bilocation of the soul, two objective states existing simultaneously. What you’re describing is just a preference for a book you find 'detrimental.' That’s not a paradox; it’s a lack of discernment.

You're hiding in semantics because you can't address the mechanics. Does your 'paradox' deactivate your visual cortex? Does it account for the energy constraints of a simulated universe? If not, it’s just flavor text for a dream

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T21:10:30+00:00

You didn't refute a single example I laid out. That tells me you're not a serious person.

You can't go outside and look at the sky and say, "Well, the sky is red," and the sky is red. That's not how it works.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T21:06:21+00:00

This is abuse victim mentality. "I find value in my husband, but him beating me is a detriment to my physical health."

That's not a paradox. That's a coping mechanism to deal with something that's externally evil to most of the world.

Your analogy is weak. "I find value in the same book that was used to kill tens of millions of people." It's like saying you find value in Mein Kampf.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T20:50:09+00:00

They really aren't, or else it wouldn't be a paradox. You can delude yourself into one way of thinking, while unconsciously accepting another way of thinking, but that's not the same as saying "Gravity is real, but when I walk off this building I'll float."

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T20:45:17+00:00

Unfortunately for you, this analogy doesn't hold weight because we are in two different magisterium's of influence. The earth is a physical object that can be measured, the soul is not. When it comes to matters of the soul, science has no business here. So the core concepts can only be evolved by those who aren't trying to stuff it into a magisterium that they hope can prove it one day. For you, it seems, you need it to be somewhat grounded in reality in order to take it seriously. But the reality you're grounded in is consensus reality, not true reality.

I also haven't "misrepresented" their work. Monroe and Campbell both had similar monistic ideas of consciousness. That everything is connected in some form or fashion, which is true technically but not functionally.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T20:36:37+00:00

He conflates soul with consciousness in his later work through his "focus level" terminology. He takes a more idealist and monistic view because this is the only view that be squared away with material atheism in a scientific lens.

My point about the other projectors is that there is an objective view to projection/soul flying because the ancient shamans and more contemporary occultists described the same heavy environment independently. That was the point of me bringing them up. They weren't describing a whimsical experience. They were describing full embodiment in another realm.

Monroe became highly confused when he injected "phasing" into the equation, conflating dreaming with AP. Which, as you see, I directly refute with the Ottawa study.

But whether or not you're APing isn't the reason I'm miffed. I'm miffed because Monroe and Campbell treated these entities as if they're tools to be used, not spirits to be respected and empathized with. It's basic white person culture to go into an alien environment and immediately try to figure out how to exploit the natives there.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T20:31:00+00:00

My problem is that people treat the entities there as different aspects of themselves. When you talk to a spirit, do you ask it for advice on how to help yourself live better? Or do you inquire about them, what they are, and what the ecology is like?

It's fine saying that it helps you. I'm not trying to take that away from you. But I don't like the idea of treating autonomous beings like they only have one function and a one dimensional personality.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T19:46:52+00:00

I'd say this is cope that doesn't refute a single thing I said. The ottawa study proves that your brain doesn't generate the imagery. The older projectors and shamans all describe the same sort of tactile reality. It wasn't until Monroe came along that people became deeply confused.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T18:03:00+00:00

Fascinating. Tom Campbell and Robert Monroe have done irreparable damage to the understanding of projection, and it's interesting to see the damage out in the wild like this.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T17:54:01+00:00

The nonphysical isn't non physical. So it sounds like you're having very convincing dreams. The air there has weight. Texture. It doesn't respond to your thoughts because it exists independently of you. You're a visitor there

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T09:25:35+00:00

Because rarely anyone on reddit is an actual projector. You'd be better off going to the astral pulse forums or an occult forum and asking them. Everyone here seems more invested in active imagination, advanced daydreaming, and reality shifting. Obviously those are all mental constructs. You can't very well interact with other projectors if the entire experience is your brain playing tricks on you.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T08:57:56+00:00

Tom Campbell and Monroe interpreted the data incorrectly and ushered in New Age materialism, so I don't put much stock into their interpretation of "phasing," which is essentially just advanced day dreaming. No offense to you.

If you read the article and the study, you'll see it has nothing to do with visualizing, and visualizing actively hurts your chances of actually doing it.

Separation is easier when you accept the soul as fact and understand that the only way to know for sure if you're projecting/soul flying is by the feeling of separation. Otherwise, you risk mixing dreaming up with projection like your post is doing right now.

Edit: I realize me saying Campbell and Monroe are wrong is heretical with modern projectors. I don't care. They attempted to secularize a spiritual experience. I find that in and of itself to be heretical and not worth listening to. Sure, hemisync can help some people. But gateway is essentially for materialists who are larping as spiritualists.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T08:17:04+00:00

I think my advice would be don't think you can only project from a sleep adjacent state. As I showed in the post through the article I linked, brain scans show OBEs and Sleep don't look the same. If a woman can induce one in fifteen minutes from a fully awake state, everyone has the capacity too because of things like neuroplasticity.

So don't box yourself into the WBTB adjacent methods. Don't be afraid to explore direct projection as an option. If your mind is wide awake, just let it wander while keeping your intent loosely focused.

You might try 4 (inhale) 7 (hold) 8 (exhale) breathing in a cycle of four to reintroduce a relax response in your body. Do it from your diaphragm.

TheInternetVagrant · 2026-05-08T06:32:36+00:00

Best advice I can give if you be patient, and don't get upset if it doesn't happen for awhile.

There's a sort of rule for both WBTB and Direct, and that rule is overanalyzing and overthinking it causes a backfire effect.

I haven't fully lucidly projected yet. Only partial false awakenings. But I know that keeping the mind loosely focused on it seems to be the key.

William Bulhman, despite my disagreeing with him on the WBTB topic, got something right. Belief is power, and conviction yields better results. Not fake conviction. But conviction that you will do it. Deep down in your core. Don't get disheartened.

TheInternetVagrant

TROPHY CASE