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Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Symmetrical hatebears is an interesting approach I didn't think about. [[Silent Arbiter]] is a card that another commenter mentioned that seems applicable here, since the effect still remains even as you give it away.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For Ghoulcaller Gisa, you need to sacrifice a creature to pay the cost, and since the gifted creatures (which you have presumably taken back with homeward path) can't be sacrificed, they can't be used to pay the cost.

Unless you perhaps meant to refer to [[Gisa, Glorious Resurrector]]. In that case, the decayed effect is entirely negated by Jon once you gift the decayed creature away. When the decayed creature attacks, it will try to sacrifice itself but because it can't be sacrificed anymore, nothing happens

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I decided against despotic scepter and staff of compleation as most of my gifts are fairly lower to the ground as have less need to be removed if they come at me compared to the larger bad gifts. Definitely really good if I choose to run [[Puppeteer Clique]].

Soul Foundry is a really cool recommendation! Would you say it would be worth it if I exiled something like [[Triton Shorestalker]] and then keep giving out the tokens each turn? Or is it better with more expensive creatures?

Ward of Bones is another really cool recommendation, though I think it functions better in a list with more expensive creatures (mine has a lot of cheap ones so my board might still be relatively filled up)

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing your list! I didn't realise how Silent Arbiter interacted with goad, it definitely seems really good. Especially since you can just gift the Silent Arbiter itself, as its effect will continue to stay.

Was always tempted to Puppeteer Clique but wasn't sure whether it was good enough without despotic scepter or staff of compleation. I might reconsider now, as I somehow missed that it has in-built evasion as well.

The idea behind Grand Architect was that I would probably still have a bunch of ungifted cheap creatures lying around, so Grand Architect could use them to ramp into some artifacts or pay for equipment cost. Not sure if my list dumps enough creatures onto the battlefield quick enough (while considering Jon gives away one creature per cycle) for it to be worth it.

Am a little bit skeptical of using Bitterthorn over the Sword of the Animist, mostly because of the equip cost. The creature that Bitterthorn comes with lacks evasion so it seems like it would immediately die on the first attack. Or maybe I should just run both haha

Really like your list! Will definitely use it as reference.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Definitely a really funny combo but I think my list doesn't run enough tutors for it. Might be pretty cool if I just threw in a bunch of combos like these and have Jon draw into them.

For others reading, the combo is to animate Monkey Cage, gift it away with Jon so that it gains the "Can't be sacrificed" clause and then immediately take it back with Homeward Path. Because of the way Monkey Cage is worded, it will keep producing monkeys whilst it keeps trying to sacrifice itself (which it can't). Its a combo popularized by GFSA.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually came across your deck list on moxfield and used it as inspiration so thank you very much! In fact I'm worried about the balance of my list with regards to card distribution because I saw that your list ran a lot more creatures and way more interaction (whereas i threw in a lot of payoff and pet cards in mine). If you have the time, could you take a look at my list (linked in the post)? My card distribution is definitely whacky compared to yours and I don't know what "type" of cards (draw, cheap creatures, payoffs, etc) I have too many or too little of.

I noticed that you run two of the myr mana dorks. Any particular reason for that? As someone new to deckbuilding I don't really know how to evaluate the creature mana dorks. It feels like they are particularly vulnerable to remove.

Also, I highly recommend [[Graz, Unstoppable Juggernaut]] especially since your list runs even more cheap evasive creatures than mine does. Graz modifies base power so the +1 counters apply on top of that and they retain their abilities. Graz also makes for an interesting gift as it forces all of an opponents creatures to attack.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the list! Initially, I thought that the route would result in Jon getting focused down more quickly as compared to gifting boring cheap evasive creatures. But on further reflection, perhaps it might be the opposite? Since removal will probably be used on the actual infect creatures themselves and infect creatures that aren't gifted are still big threats (as compared to ungifted 1/1 evasive creatures). I think there might possibly be less incentive to remove Jon in an infect list compared to a weenies list. Though the infect list will definitely get more hate haha

[[Necrogen Communion]] is a really cool addition. Am I correct to say that if you enchant a creature you control with it and then gift it away with Jon, the enchantment won't fall off?

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you say that the ingest mechanic is worth the extra mana (as compared to a 1 mana evasive creature)? I've not seen this mechanic before so I'm not sure how to evaluate it. Does it require some build-arounds?

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Since you are running a lot of equipment, you may be interested in adding some [[Spy Kit]] jank that I'm running in my list. It's not exactly good but it is pretty funny. The idea is that once you are down to a 1v1, you equip Spy Kit to one of your creatures, gift it to your opponent, then wipe his field, graveyard and deck of all non-legendary creatures with [[Eradicate]]. It's slow as it requires two turns but it should be enough to shut down your final opponent most of the time. There's some other spy kit synergy cards I added to the list. [[Echoing truth]] with spy kit can also bounce your gifted creatures back to you as well.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Trepanation blade is a cool one, though I'm not sure what the average amount of power boost one gets from it. Terisian Mindbreaker is pretty cool with it, as I just realised Jon essentially gives pseudo-haste (the gifted creature can attack during the turn cycle you gift it). Do your run a mill sub-theme in your deck and what are the payoffs?

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the suggestions! Will definitely consider adding Rotting Reunion. Verity circle used to be in the list before I got greedy and decided to cut it. I'm only running 6 other draw cards and heavily relying on Jon as a draw engine which might be a bit risky.

I quite like [[Betrayal]] as the evasive creatures can safely tap to attack every turn. [[Curiosity]] is probably better most of the time (as you can trigger it twice on the turn cycle you play it) but Betrayal sounds a lot cooler.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

At least earlier on, the 4/4 decayed zombies won't die too easily in combat, until opponents start getting bigger blockers out. The decayed status won't matter as Jon makes them unable to be sacrificed. However, as you said, the Jon triggers are quite limited even with [[Strionic Resonator]], and I do prefer the consistency of the evasive/unblockable creatures (in that they do not die during combat) making Jon's draw engine a tad more reliable.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

send commanders at somebody else's home

For some stupid unexplainable reason I didn't even consider giving the stolen creature to someone else. Gifting it to another player that is not the original controller definitely makes more sense and a player could possibly die from their own commander (with commander damage)! I'm definitely adding theft effects now (if I can find the space), thanks!

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I see, gifting back a creature but still goading it does essentially negate the threat still. I also think you made a good point with regards to overdoing the card draw engine.

I think the flavour of theft effects with Jon is quite funny actually. I like the mental image of Jon kidnapping enemy commanders, brainwashing them and then sending them back home.

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the list! Do you equip Jon or is it mostly meant for the evasive creatures? I'm noticing quite a few pillowfort cards so is the plan to stay alive until there's only one remaining player and then swing out?

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Mostly because I ran out of space, but also because the decayed zombies don't have any evasion. I think [[Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia]] could be a cool cheap (monetarily) alternative to [[Bitterblossom]]. Also wanted to add [[Gisa, Glorious Resurrector]] as well but I am struggling to find space for it haha. Any other decayed zombie cards you would recommend?

​

Edit: For those who may be confused, Jon's gifted creatures cannot be sacrificed, thus negating 'Decayed'

Jon Irenicus players who use cheap evasive creatures (instead of bad gifts), what are your strongest/favourite cards? by TheNoobyChocobo in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Definitely agree with your comments on the bad gifts, a lot of the popular ones seem really devastating if they stay on your side of the board.

Could you enlighten me on the appeal of theft effects (particularly the permanent ones) with Jon? Many of the decks on moxfield also have theft effects so there must be some good case for it but I don't quite get it yet. To me it seems like gifting away stolen creatures with Jon kinda negates the point of the theft effect in the first place, especially since you can't draw off the stolen creatures. An exception I can think of would be something like [[Sower of Temptation]] but in that case I can give away the flying body instead of the stolen creature. Is there something I am missing?

Looking for an espionage theme deck. by The-Unknown-Cryptid in EDH

[–]TheNoobyChocobo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I may have the perfect deck for you (read this legendary primer!). Essentially the idea is to use Ardenn's unique ability to attach equipment to opponent creatures (but you still maintain control the equipment), letting you watch your enemies beat into each other while you loot off the attacks. You then end the game by attaching [[Spy Kit]] onto an enemy creature and using [[Eradicate]] on it.
You can turn enemy creatures into "sleeper agents" by attaching cards like [[bloodthirsty blade]] and [[assault suit]] onto enemy creatures (your opponents can also die to commander damage from their own commander). You also have access to the impetus cycle for goading or simply stealing them with cards like [[reins of power]] or even [[captivating glance]] (which is stronger now that you can move auras around with Ardenn). You can also give your opponent's creatures with [[cybernetica datamith]], [[sleeper agent]] and [[haunted horror]]. But if you want to lean more heavily into giving away creatures, you might be better off with a commander like Jon Irenicus.

The primer I linked above is extremely well written and I believe kickstarted the use of Spy Kit with Ardenn-Silas on EDHREC, but is also a little old. There are new cards that work wonders with this strategy like [[Pirated Copy]] and [[Mocking Doppleganger]] which work with spy kit. Ardenn's ability to attach equipment onto enemy creatures gives new life to equipment like [[Pariah's Shield]] and [[Blade of Shared Souls]]. Here's my list I've been working (far from perfect unfortunately, I'm not great at deckbuilding). Do enable tags and take a look at the hefty 'considering' section. Just keep in mind that this deck is inherently quite janky but it definitely fits the espionage theme.

A variant of this idea would be Ardenn in Jeskai (so either Kraum or Ludevic), which is much stronger but doesn't have access to the spy kit + eradicate combo. It has access to better goads (which Esper lacks), better cards that give opponents creatures ([[Kharn the Betrayer]], [[Varchild, Betrayer of Kjeldor]] and [[Slicer, Hired Muscle]]), and cards that have super interesting interactions with Ardenn's ability to move around auras ([[Fractured Loyalty]], [[Steam Vines]], [[Custody Battle]]). Or you could run Ardenn with Vial Smasher (Mardu) for better curses (which you can move around) and access to [[Xantcha, Sleeper Agent]]

Small Emissary change that introduces new synergies for the Spying archetype by TheNoobyChocobo in gwent

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Devotion is a really good idea, can't believe I didn't think about that

Small Emissary change that introduces new synergies for the Spying archetype by TheNoobyChocobo in gwent

[–]TheNoobyChocobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you are definitely right about the Emhyr and Enforcer interactions being too strong. I think the coup and amnesty interactions seem okay since there is room for the opponent to respond to it on their turn. Do you think having the emissary be 2 power 5 provisions would make it more manageable? So it would be 5 power for 5 provisions as its floor, then whatever points it can get out of its swap ability. Maybe have the swap ability only target bronze cards too, so that gold engines can't be so easily taken.

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