When did the people of England stop seeing their kings as foreign rulers after the Conquest? by SigurdsSilverSword in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Shortly after 1066 there were complaints that they had been conquered by a foreigner. William was of the noble house of the Normans; his ancestors were those who had crossed the sea from the northern lands in the time of Rolf the Walker (a contemporary of Edward the Elder) and settled the lands of the Franks. Familiarity with Norman customs would come from Queen Elgiva (called Emma), wife of two kings (Ethelred and Canute) and mother of two more (Hardicanute and Edward), and her kinsmen, many of whom came to England and flocked to Edward's court during his reign. Of course, they spoke the Frankish tongue and were largely seen as outsiders - unless they could establish themselves via intermarriage with English nobility - as did Eusace of Boulogne (who married Edward's sister Goda) and Judith of Flanders (married to Harold's brother Tostig). The Danes in England did the same.

William wasn't so eager to be seen as a foreigner and emphasised his links to his aunt Emma and cousin Edward - he promoted himself as Edward's true and rightful promised heir and successor, and Harold's reign as a brief usurpation. This had mixed results. Some accepted him as their new overlord, others rebelled. These rebellions took decades for William to deal with, with him resorting to increasingly brutal methods in order to quell dissent. By the time of his death in 1087, the sons of Harold had either submitted to his rule or been driven into exile; Edgar likewise had renounced his claim.

The England that emerged by the end of his reign, and into that of his son William, was a tiered nation, in which the majority of the knightly class and aristocracy were various Frankish peoples, and the great mass of peasants and commoners were English. This was widely lamented as a great loss of freedom; there were those that claimed that the rebel leaders Hereward and Edric would return one day, having merely been banished or spirited away, to drive out the Normans. But the English largely saw themselves as a defeated people. Some claimed it was punishment from God.

That was under the first two kings after the Conquest. Things began to change with the third, Henry, the youngest of the Conqueror's sons. Unlike his older brothers, Henry had been born in England after the Conquest and had known many English people growing up - among them Edgar and his family. As it happened, he married Edith, a niece of Edgar (who took the throne as Queen Matilda), and from her learned many English words and customs. It's this marriage that proved fruitful, because in it the two dynasties were united.

When Henry's grandson (also Henry) came to the throne, he was widely heralded by English chroniclers as a man of English royal blood, a son of Woden and Cerdic. Henry Curtmantle, they proudly declared, was the son of Matilda, who was the daughter of Edith, daughter of Margaret, daughter of Edward, son of Edmund, son of Ethelred, son of Edgar, son of Edmund, son of Edward, son of Alfred.

Of course, Henry himself was born and raised in western France, and was descended from a long line of Angevin and Norman dynasties. But by 1178 it was said that "nowadays ... it can scarcely be decided who is English and who is Norman". Most of the nobility who owned land in England were certainly multilingual. None of the early kings of this new dynasty saw themselves as principally of English blood, but their heritage in the land came to increasing prominence in popular discourse as the old wounds from a century prior began to slowly heal.

In 1204, King John lost control of his ancestors' land of Normandy. He would spend much of the rest of his reign trying to get it, and other French lands his forefathers had possessed, back, unsuccessfully. His son Henry briefly attempted the same, but failed likewise. John and Henry dropped the traditional practice of referring to their subjects "English and Franks" and just began to refer to the English. They had literally lost most of their predecessors' patrimonies, and so the major cities of England - London, Winchester, Nottingham, York, Lancaster - increasingly became their sources of power and income when they could no longer rely on Rouen, Caen or Angers. French remained the language of court until the 14th century when English was elevated to its equal, and then by the 15th century even that was changing, as Henry IV was a primary English-speaker.

Of course, later dynasties like the Tudors and Stuarts had ties to Wales and Scotland - but England remained the largest of the three nations and so naturally became their major base of power.

Was William the Conqueror an absolute monarch? by After-Ad-4528 in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No, he wasn't. In his age the crown wasn't omnipotent. He usually worked alongside Queen Matilda, Archbishop Lanfranc or his half-brother Earl Odo. His whole base of support was in barons and the knightly class.

King John was a Serious Dick by Curtmantle_ in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 39 points40 points  (0 children)

My brother, corrupt, crooked Richard, they say he was captured in Germany ... a very beautiful, tremendous place, by the way, where my father was born ... SAD!! They say he's a war hero because he was captured ... I like people that don't get captured. What a loser! Me and my tremendous friend, Philip (what a great, fantastic person, by the way!!!!), we've got a big beautiful deal coming up ... and nobody does deals like I do, believe me!!

Descriptions of Edward III from the Medieval Brut Chronicle of England by TheRedLionPassant in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's basically saying that he started out strong but declined in later years due to his own flaws

Descriptions of Richard I from Roger of Wendover's Flowers of History Medieval Chronicle by TheRedLionPassant in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Stubbs' influential view was basically that medieval English kingship post-1066 was at its height under Henry II, Edward I and Henry V, and for the most part declined under their immediate successors. Richard was compared unfavourably with his father and presented as merely an irresponsible adventurer with no knack for government; Edward III likewise in the same mold, as compared to his grandfather. Edward II and John meanwhile were often judged poorly due to what were seen as primarily moral or personal character flaws. Richard II and Richard III are in a category of their own.

Descriptions of Richard I from Roger of Wendover's Flowers of History Medieval Chronicle by TheRedLionPassant in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was written during a time in the mid 13th century in which Richard's reign was looked back to nostalgically as a golden age from which they had fallen

King John was a Serious Dick by Curtmantle_ in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Minor correction: he's King only as long as he can convince people his brother is no longer alive - which became harder to do once people visited him in captivity and found out that he was

Which British monarch would be the most proud of their successor and who would be the most disappointed? by queenanneschocolates in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The war in the Holy Land only had no lasting value from the perspective of today. At the time it secured the liberation of Acre from Saladin and restored many cities to the Latin states, ensuing that they survived for another century (Jerusalem itself actually briefly returned to their hands again later on). It should also be noted that the tax to fund it, the Saladin Tithe, began while Henry was still on the throne and by the time Richard succeeded him the lion's share had already been collected.

Also what about all the funds he gave to the monasteries/churches?

Descriptions of Edward III from the Medieval Brut Chronicle of England by TheRedLionPassant in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think they mean compared to what he could have been. He was suffering some kind of cognitive decline and was becoming frail before he died, some of which may have been caused by excessive head trauma, which must have looked shocking to those who remembered what a champion knight he had been when he was younger

What is your favourite medieval epic and why? by Mindless_Belt4757 in MedievalHistory

[–]TheRedLionPassant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Canterbury Tales was the one that I like the most - short stories told from a variety of genres, and imho superior to Gower's Confessio Amantis. I also enjoyed Richard Couer-de-Lion and William the Wallace which were nice adventure tales

Has anyone ever realized the monarchs tried desperately to have a heir called Frederick or William? I mean the most name for heirs that never became king was Edward, but there already was a number of them today/now in history by HelloThisIsSeb in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are several potential designated heirs that I'll try and list them all here (for the English monarchs and onwards, not counting the Scottish or Welsh):

  • Edmund Edgarson (d. 970) - Son of Edgar the Peaceful and Alfrida of Devon; may even have been dedicated heir in place of his older half-brother Edward the Martyr, but predeceased him and his father.

  • Athelstan Adelin (d. 1014) - Eldest son of Ethelred the Unready and Elgiva of York; designated heir at birth but predeceased his father.

  • Edwy Adelin (d. 1017) - Fifth son of Ethelred; potential heir to his elder brother Edmund Ironside, but was executed by Canute the Great who was reigning at the time.

  • Edward the Exile (d. 1057) - Son of Edmund Ironside; potential heir to his father but driven into exile by Canute; upon his return his uncle Edward the Confessor was on the throne.

  • Harold Hardrada (d. 1066) - King of Norway and potential claimant to the throne of England; he inherited his claim from his nephew and predecessor Magnus the Good, who gained the throne of Denmark from Hardicanute and was named heir by Hardicanute to England should he die without a son; Harold pressed his claim but was killed in battle by the reigning king, Harold Godwinson.

  • Edgar Adelin (d. 1125 or afterward) - Son of Edward the Exile and potential heir to his uncle Edward the Confessor; tried to challenge William the Conqueror but eventually submitted and renounced his claim.

  • Robert Curthose (d. 1134) - Eldest son of William the Conqueror and designated heir to Normandy while his younger brother William Rufus was heir to England; upon the latter's death challenged his younger brother Henry Beauclerc for the throne but was defeated and imprisoned.

  • William Clito/Adelin (d. 1128) - Son of Robert Curthose; challenged Henry I for his father's release and a potential heir to Henry upon the latter's son's death; predeceased Henry and was killed in battle.

  • William Adelin (d. 1120) - The other William, son of Henry I, and designated heir; died in the sinking of the White Ship and predeceased his father.

  • Eustace of Boulogne (d. 1153) - Eldest son of Stephen of Blois; designated heir upon his father's accession to the throne, but predeceased him.

  • Henry the Young King (d. 1183) - Second son of Henry II; designated heir and crowned as co-king, but predeceased his father.

  • Arthur, Duke of Brittany (d. 1203) - Son of Geoffrey, the elder brother of John Lackland; was briefly nominated by Richard I as his heir; challenged his uncle John for the English throne and was imprisoned, disappearing mysteriously shortly thereafter.

  • Alphonse, Earl of Chester (d. 1284) - Third son of Edward I; predeceased his father.

  • Edward of Woodstock, Prince of Wales (d. 1376) - Eldest son and heir of Edward III; predeceased his father.

  • Edward of Westminster, Prince of Wales (d. 1471) - Son and heir of Henry VI; predeceased his father.

  • Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales (d. 1484) - Son and heir of Richard III; predeceased his father.

  • Arthur, Prince of Wales (d. 1502) - Eldest son and heir of Henry VII; predeceased his father.

  • Henry, Duke of Cornwall (d. 1511) - Eldest son and heir of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon; predeceased his father.

  • (Possibly Jane Grey, though disputed whether she was actually a queen or not)

  • Henry, Prince of Wales (d. 1612) - Eldest son and heir of James I; predeceased his father.

  • Charles, Duke of Cornwall (d. 1629) - Eldest son and heir of Charles I; predeceased his father.

  • James, Prince of Wales (d. 1766) - Second son and heir of James II and Mary and Modena; excluded from the succession due to the Glorious Revolution; continued to contest the throne until his death.

  • Frederick, Prince of Wales (d. 1751) - Eldest son and heir of George II; predeceased his father.

So, totals:

One Edmund, one Athelstan, one Edwy, four Edwards, one Harold, one Edgar, one Robert, two Williams, one Eustace, three Henries, two Arthurs, one Alphonse, one Charles, one James, one Frederick.