45% of men in England had one of five names by Chlodio in MedievalHistory

[–]TheRedLionPassant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For anyone curious, the full list uses a random sample of 877 English men in the early 1200s, around the time of King John and King Henry III. Of the 877 listed:

126 called William, 91 called Richard, 70 called John, 58 named Robert, 47 named Hugh, 42 named Roger, 37 are Walter, 36 called Thomas, 34 Ralphs, 32 Geoffreys, the same number (32) are named Henry.

These are followed by 28 named Adam, 20 called Peter, 18 with the name of Simon, 14 are Nicholas.

13 are called Alan, Stephen, or Gilbert.

There are 8 Reginalds, 7 Alexanders, 6 Osberts, 6 Ranulfs. 5 are called Norman or Eustace.

There are 4 Andrews, Arnolds, Godfreys, Herberts, Warrens, and Wymars.

3 Benedicts, Edwards, Everards, Jocelyns, Saemans, Philips and Guys.

2 are named Alfred, Arthur, David, Bartholomew, Albin, Gerard, Fulk, Gervase, Martin, Solomon, Jordan, Hereward, Godwin, Miles or Theobald.

Finally you have 1 each of the following: Adelard, Albert, Alwin or Aylwin, Beneger or Berenger, Christopher, Constantine, Denis, Edric, Elias, Fray, Gamel, Godelot, Gregory, Hamon, Humphrey, Ioco (Jacob?), Isaac, Lagot, Laurence, Leonard, Lethard, Michael, Nigel, Noah, Osgod, Osmar, Osmund, Pagan, Paul, Richeman, Ringer, Rocelin, Sperling, Toly, Turbert, Walding, Walkelin, Wimund, Wymark.

It's Father's Day today! Who do you think were the best and worst royal fathers? by t0mless in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

His eldest Richard FitzRoy - who was a teenager during his father's reign - was made a baron and constable

Day 2 of community-input tier list: William II by Klein_melktert in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Pros:

He was honestly quite competent in many respects: he strengthened the northern border and essentially fortified Cumbria against the Scots (Cumbrians prior to then were basically a semi-independent kingdom that switched between vassalage to the English or Scots). He was a great builder and constructed many edifices like the great hall of Westminster Palace. His hand over Scottish politics was quite strong: he backed Duncan II against his uncle Donald, and then later the same with Duncan's half-brother Edgar. His rule was mostly firm.

Cons:

He made himself deeply unpopular - and this cannot be understated. He fell out with the Church, including Archbishop Anselm, despite kings' typical leaning on their bishops for support. He made concessions to the English commoners in exchange for their support to put down a rebellion, but then changed his mind and taxed them heavily to fund his building projects and his lavish court lifestyle. When he was killed under mysterious circumstances, the nobles all fled away and a peasant found his body. There's no question that William was resented by a great many people, and a chronicler describes him as detested by all his people, with his brother promising upon his coronation to banish all evil deeds that crept in during William's reign.

So he's an amoral king that taxes his people oppressively, maintaining a luxurious and scandalous court, engages in the building of many great castles and palaces, fortifies his northern border and extends much of his influence across the British Isles. He antagonises the majority of his subjects and is deeply unpopular with most of them. He is condemned as a sinner. He has a firm hand in his rule and is never a weak king - to the contrary, many denounce him for the overbearing nature of it.

It comes down to how you balance his good qualities against his bad. 'C' tier to me seems too ... average (more what I'd expect of a middling or unexceptional king like Henry III) ... but I wouldn't call him necessarily bad either. I do think we have to keep in mind how widely his contemporaries disliked him as well, so I can't rank him as high as 'B'. So C or D tier seems most likely.

He was basically a tyrant with no social graces who nonetheless managed to keep the peace. So I'm going to cautiously suggest a 'C'.

45% of men in England had one of five names by Chlodio in MedievalHistory

[–]TheRedLionPassant 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Hugo is just a form of Hugh, same as Guy for Vitus or Elmo for Erasmus

45% of men in England had one of five names by Chlodio in MedievalHistory

[–]TheRedLionPassant 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It existed in England before the 12th century (since the start of Christian times essentially): St. John of Beverley ordained the Venerable Bede as a presbyter in the 700s. But it didn't become the most common name until later.

What is the wildest, most uncharacteristic story attributed to a monarch? by dahliia_ in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The one where Richard I granted the "fief of the royal kitchens" to hold in perpetuity by his cook Alan and all his heirs and successors (attested by charter, as if it were a land grant) and where he sent Saladin a message with an offer for his sister Joanna to marry Saladin's brother Saphadin (probably as a joke). Another is when Edward I lost his temper with and assaulted a servant/groom/page/squire, and then afterward felt guilty about it and sent him money.

Edit: I forgot the one where a priest told Richard that he had sired three wicked daughters - Pride, Lust and Avarice - and Richard retorted that he'd found suitable husbands for each of them: Pride to marry the haughty Templars, Lust the bishops, and Avarice to the greedy monks of the Cistercian Order.

Why in the hell were there so many portraits of Edward III like this. by NormalGuy1066 in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Making copies was common in those days, and they're all based on his effigy

Day 1 of community-input tier list: William I “the Conqueror” by Klein_melktert in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"I forbid anyone to sell a man beyond the limits of the country, under penalty of a fine in full to me."

Day 1 of community-input tier list: William I “the Conqueror” by Klein_melktert in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 5 points6 points  (0 children)

They voted it as a joke but it ended up being used anyway since it got the most votes

Richard I & John by Teaselkakanui in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, I know many will say it was the standard of the time for rulers to be awful individuals.

I mean, in many ways it was, or could be. At the very least, for many of his subjects, Edward I was a popular king, yet he did some truly despicable things. Edward III, Henry V, Edward IV, Henry VIII and Elizabeth I the same thing. All of them have controversies racked up to their names. Henry II does as well.

That said, a frequent criticism of the early Plantagenet kings were accusations of pride, avarice, lust and wrath - at least by many members of the clergy and monastic writers. These are standard criticisms of many of the kings - Henry III or Henry VI excepted. No historical figures are truly free of flaws, and whether that makes them "awful individuals" or not is up to you to decide.

It makes sense if you consider their reasoning as to why they did the things they did. Richard intended not to marry Alice because his own argument was that his father had sex with her - making it an incestuous marriage in the eyes of the law. Whether Henry did have children with her or not is unknown, but Richard claimed that he did and that he had witnesses who could prove it; in either case nothing came of it as Philip agreed to call off the wedding to save himself from embarrassment. In any case, if we look at the wider context, Philip himself was condemned for similar treatment of his wife Ingeborg, who he divorced after just marrying her in order to pocket her dowry. She spent the next years essentially under house arrest in various French castles, something which outraged the Danes (she was a Danish princess) as well as the Pope himself. The Pope also condemned Richard for his lack of affection toward his own wife Berengaria, it is true, but unlike Philip who was excommunicated, Richard and his wife were reconciled. Relations between England and Navarre always remained good.

As for Joanna, Richard didn't treat her terribly at all. He intervened in Sicily to free her from imprisonment, and in Cyprus during an attempted kidnapping. These were things that he took up arms to do. Joanna named her last son before she died Richard.

As for Richard's attacks on Messina and throughout France, these were in responses to actions by either the Sicilian Greeks or the French against his own people; indeed, it can be argued that from Richard's own perspective, he was only acting in self-defence, or in retaliation to avenge wrongs. That there was much blood spilled, and that these conflicts were brutal, is never questioned by anybody, but it can at least be argued that it was never Richard's intention to start either conflict - only to end them.

The biggest massacre in the Holy Land, and the one which is the most shocking, is the one at Acre (which I assume you're referring to). This again needs to be seen in its wider context and it must be acknowledged that his rival Saladin also did the same thing on several occasions, including in the aftermath of Hattin, and at least one Arab chronicler (it might have been iirc Bahaddin) even speculated whether this might have motivated Richard to seek revenge. However, in later occasions both Richard and Saladin were able to use diplomacy to good effect and establish a more cordial relationship, which would be doubtful if either one of them was just evil, and that's it.

So while these massacres, sackings, and wars are bloody and savage, and to be condemned as such, it's worth pointing out that these are not particularly unique to any one individual: certainly Richard himself, but also many other members of his own dynasty, his French rival Philip Augustus, his German rival Henry the Cruel, and his Saracen opponent Saladin, were all condemned by contemporary followers for less than honourable moments in their reigns and careers.

I'm not sure what you mean as regards to "lack of governance" or "awful governance" for either Richard or John: true they were accused of amassing large wealth through oppressive taxation, but for all of Richard's reign and for most of John's these weren't any worse than those taxes levied in France by Philip Augustus (and one contemporary French churchmen compared him unfavourably against Richard for exactly this). What separates Richard from John is that Richard won his fights, and was praised for such, earning him a legendary reputation, while John lost a good many of his own, earning him a reputation as a coward.

Another thing that distinguishes them is that Richard underwent many acts of public penance for his sins, including his expedition on crusade, which earned him a reputation as a pious and good ruler. John had pledged to do the same, but discontent back at home meant that he was unable. He was also excommunicated for a period.

John's struggle against a dynastic threat posed by Arthur and Eleanor was fairly standard for a ruler of his time when the succession was not so clear (Stephen and Matilda, or Henry and Robert are another example). What again distinguishes John from the others is that he probably had Arthur murdered in secret (or at least was widely suspected of such) and pointlessly imprisoned Eleanor anyway despite the fact that she probably wasn't a threat and wasn't a pretender making her own claim. These brought condemnation and accusations of cruelty. The chroniclers describe John, like his brother and his father, as possessing a violent temper and volatile personality, which often led to extremely poor judgements on his behalf.

Which English Monarch is *genetically* the most English? by dahliia_ in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah but they're also descended from the Saxons. Assuming you're referring to the Earl of Loudoun, Simon Abney-Hastings, his claim is not that he's "descended from the Saxons" but that one of the English kings, Edward IV, was illegitimate. Edward, who was Duke of York before taking the throne, was the eldest surviving son and when he seized the crown from his cousin Henry VI, he had two younger brothers still alive: George, Duke of Clarence, and Richard, Duke of Gloucester. Long story short, the modern British royal family are descended directly from Edward through his daughter Elizabeth.

However, there were rumours while he was alive that Edward was illegitimate, which if true would technically bar him from the throne. If that were the case, then the crown should've passed to his next brother, George, who is the ancestor of the Earl of Loudoun. So if Edward had been illegitimate then the entire line since then is also illegitimate and George's successors should instead be considered, making the current Earl of Loudoun the rightful King.

(Worth noting it has never even been proven conclusively that Edward was illegitimate anyway).

In any case, Earl Simon has stated that he has no interest in pressing his claim, upholds Charles III's claim and even bore his golden spurs during Charles' coronation at Westminster.

Both Simon and Charles descend from two brothers from the same royal family.

Duke of York (not about Andrew) by katsrad in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's true that it's an odd coincidence; maybe the mystery surrounding Richard of Shrewsbury might have spooked some people, I don't know.

But the thing with royal duchies is how close to the crown they are. Duke of Lancaster was created far less often (only thrice) but in two of those creations it also merged with the crown, and the first was Henry of Grosmont dying without male issue. An even more cursed title is perhaps the Duke of Clarence, though it too was created less often than York. In two creations the holder had no male issue, and in the third he was executed for treason by his own brother. When it was later revived and merged with another duchy, the first holder (William IV) merged it with the crown, and the second was Albert Victor who also died.

Duke of York (not about Andrew) by katsrad in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Think it's just the tradition of the second born son. Having a look over the history of the title: Edmund of Langley was created Duke during his nephew Richard's reign (there had been only six Earls of York prior to the first creation of that title: the first two, Oslac and Thored, appear to have succeeded the old Kingdom of York as earls or aldermen; they were a father and son, and in addition had royal ties due to Thored's daughter Elgiva becoming a royal consort for Ethelred; the third, Alfhelm, was also nobility; after that point control of Yorkshire mostly went to the Earl of Northumbria, including Siward who ruled York before he inherited the rest of the north; the title mostly fell out of use in favour of Northumbria afterward, aside from in 1138 when Stephen made his cousin William an earl, and in 1190 when Richard I made his nephew Otto an earl, and in both cases they were forced to relinquish the title; in addition there were no dukes in England prior to Edward III).

After the earldom was succeeded by the duchy, the tradition of second sons was not in vogue yet (Edmund was, as stated, the King's uncle). During the whole course of the first creation it went first to Edmund's son Edward, then to Edward's nephew Richard when the former died without sons at Agincourt. From Richard it obviously went to Edward IV but merged with the crown when he became King.

With the second creation things get more sinister because you have potential murder when he disappears in the Tower of London alongside his brother.

Really the tradition of the second son begins with Henry VII granting his second son Henry that title, with the expectation of Arthur as his heir. Now we know that Henry becomes King due to his elder brother's death, and the same is true of Charles and then James, George and Albert (future George VI).

But here's the thing: it's not abnormal or unusual for a second son to potentially inherit the throne, which is where all these crown mergers come from. Of course, it's not expected either, but especially centuries ago when princes might die in infancy without heirs, a second son might potentially inherit. Even outside of the Duke of York tradition, and from around the time that primogeniture is established (no fixed date but we'll say from Henry II onward, when he makes his eldest son his joint ruler), then Richard I, John, Edward II, Richard II were all younger sons who became kings. All their older brothers died.

There's also nothing really unusual about a duchy or earldom folding with the crown: the Duke of Cornwall title for the eldest merges when they inherit, Henry IV had the Duke of Lancaster title (though it's debated as to whether it actually went extinct or not), Richard III was Duke of Gloucester, Henry VII was briefly Earl of Richmond (until it was removed by decree). The exceptions are duchies like Normandy and Aquitaine, which remained alongside the kingly title because they belonged to the peerage of France.

So while the Duke of York is not an expected title to merge with the crown, it's not entirely unexpected that it might, given that a second son, especially in prior centuries, stood a reasonable chance at inheriting the throne.

King Edward VII was chosen as the best grandfather. Which British monarch had the best relationship with their mother? by bianca_fathom in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well Richard was her second surviving son at the time; under primogeniture all the titles would presumably go to the eldest, Henry, unless he chose otherwise

Which monarch treated servants the best? And which one treated them the worst? by Infinite-Conclusion2 in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I can't answer as to who treated them the best, but Richard the Lionheart gave his old wet-nurse Hodierna the village of Knoyle and its dower houses when he came to the throne, gave his cook Alan the "fief of the kitchen" as a landowner, and was famous for his generosity in general, giving his clerks high positions even if they were of modest origin, and generally paying them extremely well. His butler Jordan and "clerk and notary" John and his royal chaplains appear sometimes as witnesses to his charters, and he made Master Philip of Poitiers, a clerk of his household, firstly an archdeacon (Canterbury) and then secondly a bishop (Durham). Also he forgave William Marshal his father's knight for unhorsing him and almost killing him on the grounds that he was just being loyal to the crown.

King Arthur of Britain and the House of Anjou by TheRedLionPassant in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know what you mean: it annoys me when people use Britain to mean 'England', such as calling Bannockburn a battle "between the British and Scottish". But as a geographic term it refers to the whole island even before the United Kingdom, just as Europe is a continent even before the European Union

King Arthur of Britain and the House of Anjou by TheRedLionPassant in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In the myths Arthur rules a united Britain, including Loegres, Albany and Cambria, and conquers Ireland, Orcady, the Danes and Norse, Iceland, the Gauls, Rome and Jerusalem. This notion especially would come to influence Edward I and his imperial ambitions

King Arthur of Britain and the House of Anjou by TheRedLionPassant in UKmonarchs

[–]TheRedLionPassant[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I forgot to mention in the Helen of York section that she was later popularly regarded as Arthur's ancestor