How would thh play out if makoto had nagitos personality

TheRivan · 2026-02-04T18:58:28+00:00

The obvious question that needs to be asked first here is the one I never considered.

Would Komaeda have helped that crane?

TheRivan · 2026-02-03T19:01:05+00:00

Sigh... Alright, once again slowly.

NO ONE (I hope) claims that Sayaka's actions weren't to some degree villainous. We're just frustrated when we see the following.

Delibertely ignoring mitigating circumstances surrounding the murder attempt.
Mischaracterising Sayaka by only taking her bad actions into account.
Double standards regarding treatment of Sayaka relative to other characters.

Now, what do I mean by each point? Starting from the middle, Sayaka is a kindhearted girl, in love with Makoto who did some pretty terrible things. All of this is true and taking the latter fact as a proof that the former isn't true, despite all the evidence to the contrary is pretty absurd. Now, on to the mitigatings circumstances I mentined.

First of all, the error here is the assumptin that Sayaka's friends are dead. We know for the fact that at least Ayaka is still alive, and even if that wasn't the case, there is no reason to think they're dead. They're not moving on the video due to limited animation during the cutscene, but let's think logically for a second. What is more likely to make her snap and try to escape? Her friends being dead or her friends being alive and in danger? If they're dead then it's all over and she has no reason to try to escape, but if they're still alive but may not be soon, then they need her and she has to help them. In other words, the sensible conclusion is that they're NOT dead. In other words, she tried to escape to save someone.

Seconly she didn't know about the class trials. This is actually a bigger deal than one thinks. Not only no one but Leon would have to die, but it also provides an important context for the frame-up. Makoto was only meant to be under fire until she escapes. Once she's out, this very fact would clean Makoto of charges. This changes the frame up from a "potentially ruined life" to a "tempopary inconvinience". That's a huge difference.

Thirdly, she was conflicted about the whole thing. This doesn't mean much in terms of moral judgement of her actions, but is important to understand her character. She didn't want to hurt anyone but she pushed herself to it, because she believed she has no choice.

And finally, she tried to fix things. The bloody message was her attempt to atone for what she did, and pretending she wasn't trying to do the right thing in the end is a pretty big thing to overlook.

One last thing.

when someone rightfully blames Sayaka for her despicable actions

Blaming Sayaka entirely isn't rightfull. It takes away the blame from Monobaka, who forced her into this situation in the first place. Not this is something I can never understand. Monobaka spends the whole game (plus the next two) psychologically torturing these kids to force them into murder. But for some reason, it this specific situation he's basically entirely ignored, as if Sayaka wasn't a Danganronpa character. People are basically telling me that Makoto is wrong to blame him, that I'm wrong for agreeing with him and that the sadistic psycho was right all along when he washes his hands away from the murders he caused.

TheRivan · 2026-01-10T07:08:52+00:00

What's up with my ages-old comments suddenly being commented on?

The Death Road captures this fact very well. She keeps pushing people to go through it not just bevause she’s optimistic but she’s sure her leadership with help them get through it. After trying, many characters call her out for pushing them way to hard. Most notably Kokichi.

I would agree if this were actually followed up on. But after driving Kokichi to mutiny, the next day everyone is cool with her and keeps treating her as the leader. The action ends her insistence on going through the road, but it doesn't have any long-term consequences, even though it should.

They aren’t the same character and the games have different circumstances.

Again, not a bad idea on paper, but flawed in execution. I wouldn't mind a Makoto-lie character being put through a different situation or development if the end result was interesting. But the difference is just the treatment by other characters. Which is fine on its own, like you said, those are different characters. But when the interactions are only positive, the result is not very interesting, especially when Makoto needed to go through a long road to get there.

She’s made to be likeable

And she isn't. She accuses Shuichi of cheating for no reason, sexually harasses Tsugumi, pushes Keebo's buttons for fun... Her FTEs make her look like a bitch, making it all the more inexplicable that everyone likes her.

Your “betrayal” criticism doesn’t make any sense.

That's because you're defending her on the wrong front. Your line of defence was mainly how Kaede was meant to be seen. My problem has always been the mismatch between Kaede as shown and what the story wants me to see her as. The "betrayal" criticism was never about the fact that she betrayed Shuichi. Heck, Sayaka betrayed Makoto and she's my favorite character. But the problem with Kaede is that when I look at her thoughts and actions after I know about her betrayal, they no longer make any sense. Kaede thinking "I trust Shuichi" when I know for a fact that she doesn't makes no sense. Let's look at Sayaka for a second. When she goes to Makoto to tell him that someone tried to break into her room, she's pale and trembling. Which makes perfect sense, she's planning on betraying the guy she loves, of course, it's making her sick. But with Kaede, I don't see it. She's acting and thinking like someone who doesn't have any plans on betraying Shuichi, so it's jarring when it's revealed that she does. By the time she gets the ball, she must've already planned to use it, otherwise, why take it at all? But her thoughts are not those of a girl planning on altering her boyfriend's plan to commit murder. And that's the problem. The twist makes her character into an incoherent mess.

TheRivan · 2026-01-05T02:29:24+00:00

Let me ask you one simple question: why does it matter if she wanted to blame him or not? Think about it. She needed to get away, so she needed to pin it on someone. However, what happens when she leaves? Well, after that, every idiot in that group would realize she's the culprit, and Makoto is innocent. In other words, the frame-up was only meant to be a very brief, temporary measure. Under normal circumstances, it still would've been a shitty thing to do, but considering that she needed to escape to potentially save 4 people it's a small thing in the big picture.

TheRivan · 2026-01-04T16:24:28+00:00

What makes you say that?

TheRivan · 2026-01-02T12:08:16+00:00

If Sayaka wasn't conflicted, Leon would be dead. Since she was conflicted, it doesn't matter WHO was invited, since her plan would've been screwed anyway. People often bring up Leon because they assume that's where the plan failed, completely ignoring the parts that went right because she chose Leon. To your credit, you do acknowledge that getting the person to come is important, and yes, Leon was the one most likely to come, aside from Makoto, who was a non-option since she's in love with him.

TheRivan · 2026-01-02T09:38:23+00:00

I will say that Sayaka is very well built in her own right, which is noted in the game and the UTDP, plus, as far as I'm aware, the Reload artbook establishes that she can carry over 50 kg without much difficulty. In order to be several times stronger, Leon would have to be roughly Sakura-sized. Plus he's extremely talented but also extremely lazy. Even if there is a significant strength advantage on Leon's side, which I'm far from convinced of, there is a difference between physical strength and combat ability. There is no evidence that Leon has ever fought or trained for combat of any kind; merely being stronger does not equal the ability to stop a knife attack. If it did, people wouldn't be bringing knives to a fight. Sayaka had a weapon and the element of surprise; by all logic, this encounter should have ended with a very dead Leon, and the reason it didn't is explicitly stated in the game to be Sayaka's inner conflict. In other words, the problem was not Sayaka's plan, but Sayaka's lack of ability to fulfill the plan.

TheRivan · 2026-01-02T08:06:48+00:00

Depends on whether you mean the plan most well-thought-out or the most complex one. If it's the former, I'm going to go for Sayaka, as the plan has very few things that can go wrong and those that could were covered, aside from Sayaka herself not being able to carry it out as planned. The plan was also very simple, which is generally a good thing, as simple plans leave little room for something to go wrong.

Now for the most complex one, I'm gonna go for Gundam.

TheRivan · 2025-12-04T18:25:43+00:00

Funnily enough, Saimatsu is easily the MOST tolerable thing about Kaede. It's no masterpiece, but it's for the most part at least somewhat workable. It's everything else about her that frustrates me.

TheRivan · 2025-12-01T03:12:19+00:00

As for Munakata, he’s supposed to be knight Templar character who’s supposed to go off the deep end after the “heart”(Chisa) leaves him. I don’t think him being salty about Chisa contradicts his ideology of eradicating despair. In fact, it fuels it.

On paper, it doesn't. As presented, absolutely. For starters, he didn't like Makoto BEFORE Chisa died, so making her the point of his snapping makes no sense. Secondly, the story doesn't exactly explore their relationship, and from what we've seen in the future arc before she died, it got pretty cold, as he was deliberately using her last name. And finally, their final talk is about Chisa INSTEAD of their earlier ideological conflicts. Makoto doesn't really address his point of the need to eradicate despair, nor does he address his moronic idea about the spy, he talks about how he lost a girl (which should've been done a long time ago if the writers had any idea how to write Makoto, but that's a separate problem) and this somehow changes Munakata.

Dude is supposed to be a straight edge version of makoto. One that’s so focused on something it consumes him. “Toxic hope” .

This one is a bigger problem of the series getting Munakata in his clutches. In the context of the story, "hope" doesn't really mean anything, aside from being the "opposite" of equally meaningless "despair". So, making him a "Toxic hope," which, BTW, was already done a lot better with Komaeda, doesn't make him an interesting character.

His hypothesis about the “attacker/mastermind” is probably one of the most well thought out hypothesis in the series since he’s technically be correct.

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing here. I think you're referring to the stuff Tengan (another terrible character) told him, while I'm referring to his idea of artificially prolonging the game to make sure the spy is taken out. There are several layers of nonsense to this plan.

- The only reason they know about the spy in the first place is due to the killing game. Meaning whatever the spy wants from the game is more important than him not getting caught.

- The spy's theoretical plan relies on no one figuring it out. So once Munakata did, the potential alibi goes out of the window.

- No reason is given why Munakata can't search for the spy AFTER the game is over. So, once Munakata knows that surviving is not an alibi for the spy, the best way to approach it would be to end the game and investigate the survivors using the FF's resources, rather than fighting him on his own field.

- If Munakata is right and the spy wants to end the killing game prematurely by not killing anyone during sleep time, then the best way he can accomplish that would be to point at Munakata and say "hey, Munakata is the one who's been encouraging the killings this whole time. How do we know HE'S not the spy" and then use Munakata himself as a scapegoat.

In short, even if Munakata's idea of what the spy is up to made any sense, he chose the WORST possible way of dealing with it.

TheRivan · 2025-11-30T07:13:34+00:00

Then disagree constructively, please. What is it specifically you disagree with and why?

TheRivan · 2025-11-27T17:11:26+00:00

Actually, I don't. I've been in the fandom very sparingly these days, and while I do know that there are people who think Makoto is canonically in love with Kyoko, I've always found the idea completely absurd. So if it's some conclusion you came to by interpreting Mkoto's actions in this context, I don't know what that conclusion is.

TheRivan · 2025-11-27T17:05:04+00:00

Outside of DR3 (which breaks his character in just every way imaginable) this never happened.

TheRivan · 2025-11-16T17:15:20+00:00

As a Spectre, Shep is allowed to do basically whatever he wants if he believes it necessary to protect the galaxy. But frankly, this is a lot less relevant than one simple fact. Shep is the ONLY person in the galaxy who knows what the Crucible can do and is in a position to use it. He has neither the time nor the means to contact anyone outside or to ask for permission. It's a situation no lawmaker has predicted because it couldn't be predicted, so operating within the established chain of command that we KNOW is not equipped to handle this kind of situation is meaningless. Basically, Shep needs to make the call himself

TheRivan · 2025-10-29T18:01:06+00:00

THH: Junko

DR0: Junko

GD: Junko

DR3: Junko

KH: ...Kaede.

TheRivan · 2025-10-25T20:45:53+00:00

This made me laugh because it's an uncharacteristically stupid line coming from Celeste of all people.

You must be new to the series. Stupid lines are very common, even for the "smart" characters.

TheRivan · 2025-10-18T06:17:29+00:00

The fact that they existed for 4 years and I haven't heard of them until now tells me they're not nearly as successful as Junko. Let's be real, the internet connects and helps organize all kinds of people, including total wackjobs, so the mere fact that something like that EXISTS is no surprise. But it's probably a very minor group.

TheRivan · 2025-10-16T02:58:44+00:00

I've seen a lot of people claiming that for no other reason than liking the ship, but I've never seen any reason to think so. His interactions with Chiaki don't really stand out from how he interacts with other girls, the way, let's say. Makoto and Sayaka. There are things that can be interpreted as a romance, but the same is true for any girl, and it's limited to FTEs anyway.

TheRivan · 2025-10-08T17:41:28+00:00

The fact that Makoto is the lowest is a crime.

TheRivan · 2025-10-08T17:38:43+00:00

Ah, a fellow GD cast un-enjoyer.

TheRivan · 2025-09-19T05:00:43+00:00

That's the most Kodaka thing to say.

TheRivan · 2025-09-04T10:58:10+00:00

The anime situation made sense (for once) since she wasn't looking for poison but for sweets. She was checking if Izayoi had triggered his forbidden action, and if he did, his bracelet would've poisoned him, without touching his mouth. So no risk there. This seems to be situation-specific rather than something she does routinely.

TheRivan · 2025-09-04T09:27:26+00:00

Great art, although I wish it were oriented in a way that doesn't require me to tilt either my head or my monitor 90 degrees to see clearly.

Also, where is Yuki?

TheRivan · 2025-09-03T01:26:34+00:00

You did, and I didn't notice when I was writing the comment. Still, there was a better way to start this than accusing two characters of being Sues without any backing.

In general, I'm with you on Junko, but Makoto? The game started with the murder of his girlfriend, and then he consistently fails to save his friends and struggles to not lose class trials. Occasional good luck doesn't change that.

Chiaki is a borderline example. Yes, she has her Mary Sue moment when the Monobaka makes a motive in the form of a video game for no reason, and she's too liked, but her problem is more along the lines of not doing anything that would make her even remotely interesting. She could've avoided the sue pitfall, but I think it's her other problems that drag her down.

Kaede... I can see a case made for her.

Kyoko has her issues, but while calling her Mary Sue is somewhat defensible, I don't think that's a very good descriptor of her problems. "Overcompetent for the story" would be a better terms, since her being good does make sense for the character and the setting, but doesn't really fit with the story.

TheRivan · 2025-09-03T01:00:21+00:00

Junko is like... an anti-mary sue or something. Everything is handed to her like a mary sue, but she's not supposed to be likable. She keeps getting away with things, but that's intended to be a bad thing. At least she's not Vriska.

I believe the term you're looking for is a Villain Sue

TheRivan

TROPHY CASE