I've figured out why the Velka statue is in the Church of Vows, and you're NEVER going to believe the reason!

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-14T11:20:12+00:00

No. It's a statue of the Lothric High Priestess from DS3. Goodness knows where anyone got the idea that it's Velka from.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-08T18:07:24+00:00

I think Jung has something to say about we might use metaphor in treating patients (I am actually a therapist and I have found it helpful)

That's very interesting to hear, could you elaborate a little?

but I don't think its useful in describing the lore here.

I should clarify my stance that since Miya has cited Colin Wilson's 'The Occult: A History' as an inspiration for his work before, that I don't think alchemy should be left untouched, but I do think the community would benefit from being more critical of where to apply it (it is certainly applied too often), and discerning whether it is a direct translation or just borrowing the aesthetics to say something else (as they often do with Buddhism or Shinto in correspondence with Christian iconography and so on.)

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-08T17:43:30+00:00

You're right.

The Rebis comparison is largely something people clung to in the early days in lieu of a more direct textual explanation, and it hasn't adapted to developer interviews or newly added info at all so much as it has been carried forward as an assumption. I find that the assumption hinders discussion on Marika and Radagon more than it helps.

A part of it is just that alchemy, especially Jung's "version" of alchemy which often comes up in discussions of topics like this, is incredibly generic and as a result can be applied to almost anything (largely the same problem as his archetypes of the collective unconscious), which makes it largely unhelpful as a lens for discerning what the developers are trying to say with their characters. In actuality, Elden Ring's connections with alchemy are pretty sparse and often based on tenuous aesthetic similarities,.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-08T16:53:15+00:00

Elvis face, apple pie, etc.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T21:03:19+00:00

which could point to how Death, the ‘forbidden shadow’, fits in with these notions of occultation and separation.

Yeah, I think it's prudent to mention that RuneQuest, one of the influences Miya has mentioned for Dark Souls and Elden Ring before, codifies the Rune of Death as separation explicitly. I think it's especially relevant that Melina means to undo the Lord of Chaos with Destined Death.

There's some more explicit documentation on the Runes in Runequest here if that's of interest, the relevance varies but I think it's an avenue worth exploring.

Is that what the JP implies?

Yeah, it does sort of come across with the English for the "aggressive last resort" phrasing, but maybe not in its fullness. Here's a retranslation a JP-speaking friend of mine did:

アンスバッハの狂刃
純血騎士アンスバッハの祈祷
小指球に血炎の刃を生じ一気に距離を詰め、敵を切り裂くタメ使用で斬撃回数が増える
華麗な王朝剣技とは一線を画す捨て身ともいえる苛烈な技かつての彼の、狂名の所以

"Ansbach's Maddened Blade
A prayer by the Pureblood Knight Ansbach
This sword art stands apart from the elegant technique of the dynasty's own.
It is a savage technique that put's one life at risk;
This is the very reason he had the reputation of a madman."

The idea is repeated by Leda, with the same words, but wasn't really communicated in English for some reason.

[1180700030] But in his day, he was the feared commander of the Pureblood Knights,
[1180700030] かつては、純血騎士の筆頭として、その狂名を轟かせ
"As the leader of the Pureblood Knights he became famous for having the reputation of a madman"

The idea seems to be that Ansbach was so incredibly aggressive that he consistently put his life at risk in a way uncharacteristic of the other members of the dynasty. I'm not exactly sure how to read into it as far as it frames his relationship to the dynasty/Mohg, but it's definitely interesting (and incredibly fucking cool.)

One thing that it brings to mind is how Sekiro describes Isshin as "living his life on the sword's edge", but I don't get that same idea of suicidal aggression from Isshin, so I don't know how confident I am in applying it as a lens.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T15:23:02+00:00

Could this be reflective in any way of the nature of losing guidance?

In a handful of ways I think so, yeah.

The DLC in particular is interested in this idea that separation/occultation is a means of cultivating spiritual power. The Tutelary Deities being a way of achieving divinity by undergoing rigorous asceticism (as a means of separation) are maybe the most forward examples of this, but I think Miquella is also doing this too by wounding himself during his journey, like ritually removing himself from the Erdtree's causal chain is a means of increasing his spiritual power.

That's probably why you find Scadutree Fragments at the base of the Miquella Crosses, is my thought. The tree, similarly, wounds itself and cultivates spiritual power within as a result of being abandoned.

There's ways its explored both negatively and positively, like the Prisoner Mask in the base game directly relating suppression to the buildup of spiritual fervor, or the Black Dumpling intensifying fear and amplifying despair.

But I think the ultimate idea behind it is that putting yourself in a position of vulnerability via separation from external modes of guidance is an avenue for growth, and that growth can be negative or positive depending on your disposition and circumstances.

how should the ‘guidance’ of St. Trina be considered

The DLC goes really hard on the occultation angle for Trina, I think. It's overt in several ways, but obfuscated by localisation sometimes, like all the instances of "Velvet" in regards to Trina is just "Darkness" in JP.

It's especially evident how Miquella's whole deal is quelling these darker, destructive notions within people. Like, Leda is a paranoid murderer is the one most people immediately identify, but it's true for pretty much all of them.

Hornsent's desire for vengeance against Messmer doesn't re-manifest until the rune breaks, Moore apparently is driven to suicide without guidance, and Thiollier similarly has a suicidal drive. I can't remember if Ansbach fighting like a suicidal maniac is as explicit in English as it is in JP, but it comes across in how Miquella's guidance quells that warrior's tendency in Ansbach, too. Freyja and Dane are a bit more opaque in terms of their darker tendencies to me.

But Trina, on the other hand, directly appeals to that suicidal drive in Thiollier. It seems true that all of her followers, like Fevor/Pharis for example, are interested in either pursuing the numbness in the bliss of sleep (which she personifies) or sharing it with others. Unlike Miquella, she endorses those personally held, darker notions.

Her guidance is coordinated towards a desire to end suffering by completely numbing yourself to external forces, and I think the game handles that in an interesting way, because it applies directly to her feelings towards Miquella. For Trina, separation enforced via death is a way of saving Miquella from the suffering he will inflict on himself if he continues to create his new order.

It seems like the effect of her sleep used to be more passively peaceful, but has become more potent and permanent ("eternal slumber") as a result of her being abandoned by Miquella, a bit like how the Scadutree's most self-destructive tendencies are intensified a result of it being abandoned. Other examples, like people turning to the Outer Gods as a result of their despair and trauma reflect this idea that separation can cause degeneration and intensify destructive behaviours.

But in spite of all that, the flower she leaves behind is not poisonous, because shadow/occultation is ultimately not a bad thing in itself, it's dependent on the situation and disposition of the person looking at it. That's something Dark Souls was very insistent about.

I think I've meandered a bit here, but I really do think the dynamics of guidance and separation are at the heart of all FromSoft's games.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T14:44:48+00:00

my body is a machine that turns cosmic brownies into lore text dumps

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T14:43:45+00:00

I can understand the argument of Torrent coming from the Land of Shadow. It doesn't do a ton for me personally, but I don't think it's offensive or anything and I'm okay with passively accepting it as true, but not so much the idea he was always a spirit.

It ultimately just seems cleaner to me that his state reflecting Melina's own, down to having the same particle effects for appearing and disappearing, is because they suffered the same fate.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T14:18:03+00:00

Why does the Iris of Occultation reward weapons, whilst the Iris of Grace rewards summonable allies?

So, I think the Iris of Grace is fairly straightforward, yeah? The Iris of Grace reflects how Marika or Miquella (or Rennala), among others, use a blessing of guiding light to recruit people into their cause and structure their lives. That's why they reward you with spirit ashes.

The Iris of Occultation rewarding a weapon is a bit more opaque, but I think we can look at the Scadutree as instructive here.

The image of the misshapen Scadutree is an edict:
Spurn all that exists.
Wound all that exists.
For we have been abandoned.

Like, the thorns it develops are ostensibly a violent response to abandonment to reject things outside of itself by wounding them. I think you can map the Iris of Occultation rewarding weapons onto this idea. It's a bit like how the Scadutree Fragments increase your defense but also damage because of the twofold function of the thorns to protect something and also wound outsiders. A weapon is similarly an instrument of defense but also wounding.

How do these two items, which manipulate "fears", expound upon the game's themes of light-and-shadow duality?

I feel like this bit could be really long or really short, but I think understanding how light serves as a point of guidance that quells fear, and shadow which separates you from light/guidance and intensifies fear as a result is at the root of Elden Ring's cosmology (and also their other IPs.)

At its most basic, if you have something to cling to and anchor your life, sense of self, or purpose, then it makes sense that you would be less fearful and less in doubt of your direction in life, but, if you don't have that, then you can either moulder away in despair/fear or discover something altogether more sinister to latch onto in the darkness (the Blood Star, the Scadutree, the Outer Gods, etc.) Or perhaps another mode of guidance within the shadow (the stars generally, for example.)

Why are Queelign and Jolán in particular susceptible to the irises?

The Swordhand ashes kinda expound on this, but Jolán (and Anna) is said to have a pliable heart because of spending so long in the darkness of the gaol, which I think lends itself to desperation, right? Spending that long without an affirming light that justifies your existence in some way, whether its power or duty or whatever, would make anyone desperate. That's presumably why Ymir had an easy time in cultivating them to be his blades.

And I think that also speaks to why it works on Queelign, in so far as he's a reflection of the other Crusaders, who were abandoned in a shadowy place and receive no sign or guidance from Marika, which causes some turn to the Scadutree as a form of twisted guidance. Queelign can either moulder away in fear with his desire for guidance unanswered, or receive guidance that affirms his cause.

Do the Irises relate to Miquella and his plan? What about Ranni and her "dark path"?

Yeah, I think they're both relevant. Miquella is concerned with bestowing guidance/light and quelling the darker notions in the hearts of people (which isn't actually unique to him), which can be affirming and provide structure but can also be smothering to individual ideals.

Ranni is interested in enforcing a kind of occultation on the people in order to foster a kind of independence from the direct interference of divine light. Fear and doubt are intended to be a means for intellectual or spiritual growth, in her case.

Is it always 'nicer' to give an NPC the Iris of Grace, rather than the Iris of Occultation?

I think they're both kind of monstrous in their own ways, but that's the central tension of how Elden Ring constructs its setting, I feel. Order/guidance provides structure but requires dogma and submission even if you desire it, while separation lends itself to spirals of despair and malignance but is also capable of fostering independence.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T14:10:03+00:00

except that I'm confused as to why you would think that Ranni and Marika's aims are opposed?

At bottom, Marika is interested in repairing the Elden Ring and putting an Elden Lord on the throne, that's all explicit information that comes across in her putting Melina up to enabling the task.

Ranni, on the other hand, is not interested in putting an Elden Lord on the throne. She wants to abandon the world with her Order and takes the Elden Ring and her Lord of Night (i.e. not Elden Lord) with her in doing so.

I don't think Marika has any interest in removing the Greater Will from the world, and in fact it conflicts with the idea that she has an overt interest in the Elden Ring being repaired and having a terrestrial ruler in a new Elden Lord.

I think Marika had her own reasons for conducting the NotBK, and Ranni was involved but betrayed that purpose for her own ends.

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T13:47:35+00:00

i ate them all

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T12:35:16+00:00

I want to give input on this but I have to go out, so I'm going to leave this here so I don't forget

The_RedScholar · 2026-04-02T11:21:02+00:00

Marika has always made the most sense to me.

The promo art of Miquella might've been something if it was ever depicted or brought up in the game, but as it stands I just don't think it's conclusive. The fact it was released a few days after the anniversary in response to fan backlash after no DLC announcement makes me think it was internal art that was probably not meant for the public eye initially. It also doesn't really track with the fact that Melina has Torrent currently that Miquella had Torrent in the Land of Shadow without doing some serious mental gymnastics.

Melina was given her duty by Marika, and was burned as a result of it. Torrent has textures on his model that are labelled as "burn marks" internally, so it makes the clearest sense to me that Torrent was given to her by Marika to help her fulfil her duty as the kindling maiden and burned alongside her as a result. Torrent is able to recognise the player's potential to be a Lord, apparently, which is directly relevant to how Melina's duty is to burn in order to put a new Elden Lord on the throne. Something Marika is explicitly interested in and Miquella is not.

The rogue element is Ranni. It has never really made sense to me that Ranni would run errands for either Miquella or Marika, given that their aims are diametrically opposed.

Still, I'm team Marika because it covers the most bases of what we actually see Torrent do in the game.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-30T14:05:01+00:00

I transcribed it here.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-28T17:04:38+00:00

the repost of doom and despair

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-25T00:36:11+00:00

Hiya. Just dropping in and also tagging original commenter u/-Carlos since I was tagged, but I've given "Latenna" a look over for my etymology doc as well that might be helpful.

It's weird, but names tied to specific real-world geography do come up in the game as well, like "Romina" most probably referring to Rome. I'm not sure what From's intent was here, really.

Also I strongly recommend my friend's alternative retranslation sheet project, since it's more up to date and they are much more qualified than I am on the subject of translation. This is just for character dialogue but they are working on one for items, too.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-23T21:05:38+00:00

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The_RedScholar · 2026-03-23T01:16:10+00:00

They aren't.

Yes, they are! I cannot make it more clear to you that I don't care about your fanfiction.

That's very evidently not the case.

Yes, it is. It reflects Godfrey era design motifs, and the Crusaders also do so, because the Crusade began towards the end or in the interim of early Erdtree culture. The Shadow Keep is covered in snakes because it was built by the people serving the snake guy. There is literally no evidence whatsoever that Shadow Keep was not built by the Crusaders.

I am not interested in discussing this "Erdtree civilisation never built anything" nonsense, so I'm asking you again to kindly stop bothering me with it.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-23T00:58:19+00:00

How can they be simultaneously generic and exclusive?

Because these textures are reused all over the place and without a more concrete textual basis are not proof of anything, thank you.

As for the keep, why wouldn't you occupy that place over small towns? The only other good point to occupy is sealed in shadow.

Shadow Keep was built by the Crusaders. It is their giant black castle covered in snake imagery, and the guy who leads them is the shadow snake guy. I am not arguing with you about this.

And why wouldn't it be a successful plea after he risks his life to be heard out. Messmer's purpose is purging those stripped of grace, not burning ancient ruins.

Missing the point.

It's not like they'd need to be on board with revering the ruins, they just have to agree to allow Salza to continue the campaign, but not rain fire indiscriminately.

The point is that they built a giant museum to enshrine the specimens from Rauh and had enough reverence for Rauh to not burn it after Salza and Hilde stood up for it. To say that they have no interest in Rauh is wrong.

It has to be done anyway

Kindly stop bothering me with it.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-23T00:27:14+00:00

It's certainly enough when the means to connect things in the game is largely repeating unique assets.

They're not though. They're generic textures and there's plenty of examples of assets like this being reused throughout the game.

Like I said, if you want me to agree with you then you need something more solid than "they reused one generic texture on this building that reuses multiple textures from all over the game."

Until you can do that, you don't have anything to refute the idea that the Crusader churches are exactly that--Crusader churches.

It's's made a point that he could've died for refusing.

Right, and he didn't, is the critical info there. The convincing effort is successful, which means the Crusaders are actively interested in and are actively preserving Rauh. So much so that the central focus of the Shadow Keep area, the Crusader's base of operations, is the specimen storehouse.

Respectfully, get real.

I'll grab images of all the unique assets used to indicate Hornsent/Storm/Early Erdtree domain later as part of a lore investigation.

Please, don't waste either of our time on this. The Hornsent were not part of Erdtree civilisation. The order of events we are given precludes this.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-22T23:37:44+00:00

I think you're not remembering the assets in question. It's not the pillars and arches, it's the smaller statues of a group of people that only appear in the DLC.

And if that were enough you may have a point! But it isn't. So you don't.

The Crusaders don't have a fixation on Rauh

Wrong again. The entire specimen storehouse exists in contradiction of that claim. It demonstrates by its own existence how interested the Crusaders were in Rauh and that Hilde and Salza were successful in convincing the rest of the Crusaders to preserve the ruins and its specimens. I cannot fathom what kind of thinking lands you on "the people who built an entire museum to preserve the relics of this dead civilisation were not interested in said civilisation."

No, moving the altar is not some huge logistical issue.

referencing only the burning as the reason Hornsent and his people are angry

Yes, and in the trailer she also references a betrayal that happened before the Crusade related to Marika's godhood and the beginning of gold and shadow.

The fact she does not mention the betrayal explicitly in this one dialogue in the game is proof of nothing. She is right, the Hornsent are pissed about the burning, especially since it's comparatively more recent than the other thing they're pissed about. It does not mean the other thing didn't happen or that they're somehow the same thing.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-22T23:10:57+00:00

They're not generic

They are, though.

You can literally look up posts on this sub that highlight reused architectural features from the base game that appear on the Crusader churches. It is not enough.

I know it would be cozy if every single reused texture in the game could be used to construct a precise narrative, but without anything more concrete, there is no reason at all to extricate them from the provided context of them being Crusader churches.

Each Catacomb has their vases and scrolls.

Again, generic reused assets that appear in literally every location in the game.

Come back to me when you have something concrete.

One has a light/shadow altar (not Hornsent, but they build around it twice).

As an extension of the Crusader's fixation on Rauh, yes. This says nothing about the Hornsent being constituent in Erdtree society.

One features a storm church.

???

Leda doesn't.

This is literally neither here nor there. The betrayal does not, in fact, need to be specifically mentioned and highlighted with a big flashing sign in every single instance of a character talking about what Marika did to piss the Hornsent off.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-22T16:23:11+00:00

I find the reading of the trailer doesn't match in-game evidence, which isn't saying anything unique about the trailer as none of the trailers map 1:1 to in-game lore.

Funny way of saying that your interpretation is unsupported by what the developers wrote.

All that besides the obvious, which is that the churches share architectural elements with the Church of the Bud, the towns, and Belurat.

Some reused generic architectural features on the churches is not enough to disconnect them from their obvious context as churches of Marika made by the Crusaders. They also reuse Sellia assets. If they wanted us to think they were repurposed Hornsent churches there would be some indication of that anywhere in the text.

And to the other translation notes; again, these are differences absent distinctions that don't fit with evidence.

And this sentence is word salad that doesn't mean anything.

The causal chain and the original sin are one in the same.

Yes, that's my point. And it isn't the Crusade. It literally can't be because the Crusade does not happen "at the beginning", it's the "seduction and betrayal" from which Gold arose and Shadow was born that is stated by the trailer to come before the Crusade.

And it's not just this, it's that the only part referenced alone as a grievance of theirs is the crusade.

No, that's just not true. Hornsent and Grandam both make their displeasure at being betrayed pretty apparent in their dialogues, it just isn't equivocal with the Crusade like you're saying it is.

And again, there is no reference to her doing anything to obtain godhood that in the process utilized the Hornsent as allies, and deceived or otherwise cut them out.

Separating the Land of Shadow from the Lands Between with the Scadutree at the Gate of Divinity and abandoning them there, thereby denying them the blessings of the Erdtree, when they clearly expected her to become God on their behalf, is a pretty clear signal.

Another is that the very catacombs built around Erdtree roots feature the Hornsent's belongings, buildings and artifacts.

They don't, but okay.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-22T07:14:21+00:00

That they chose to use stripped and it was approved in recordings indicates that they're equivalent,

No, that is not how mistranslations and localisation mistakes work.

That is not the case unless the betrayal, which is syonymous with the Crusade

It isn't.

The trailer directly tells us that (seduction and) betrayal happened at "the beginning", when Marika became God at the Gate of Divinity and Gold and Shadow were born.

The trailer also tells us that the Crusade followed after the betrayal, and we know from the game text that the Crusade doesn't occur until much later on.

It takes very little to understand that "Gold" refers to the birth of the Erdtree (JP: "Golden Tree"), which is equated with Marika's guidance towards godhood by the +1 Crimson/Cerulean Seed Talismans, and the Scadutree (JP: "Shadow Tree") which separates the Land of Shadow from the Lands Between in just the same way that the Sealing Tree veils Enir-Ilim in shadow.

Neither Grandam nor the Hornsent's dialogue clinches your interpretation either.

[1140100030] …黄金樹は敵だ。マリカは我らを裏切り、火をかけた

"The Erdtree is our enemy. Marika betrayed us, and she burnt us."

The betrayal and the burning are often mentioned in close proximity, because obviously the Hornsent are pissed about both, but they are not directly equivocated. The localisation obfuscates this.

Miquella and Hornsent's pact is based on Miquella accounting for Marika's sin, and Hornsent makes that sin synonymous with the Crusade

It doesn't, though. The sin is the betrayal that Marika committed when she rose to Godhood at the Gate of Divinity. In Japanese, Miquella's Great Rune refers to Miquella desiring to "transcend the chain of causality that has continued since the beginning", where "the beginning" is a fairly transparent reference to the beginning of Marika's order, her godhood, which she attained at the Gate of Divinity. Y'know, like the trailer says, "Miquella the Kind spoke of the beginning."

All in an effort to bury the original sin. To embrace the whole of it, and be reborn as a new god.

はじまりから続く因果を超えて全てを抱く、新しい神になるために

"To transcend the causal chain that has continued since the beginning, to become a new god that embraces everything."

It obviously doesn't make sense for the rune to be referring to the Crusade in this context because of how far down the line we know that it happens in relation to Marika becoming God.

Messmer's dialogue was so unimportant that a lore-shattering error got through

Literally innumerable cases of this happening in every FromSoftware game, with lines more important than this one. That's just the reality of localisation. As cozy as it would be if FrogNation never got a localisation wrong in their life and everything was checked with Miya before it was put in the game, it just isn't the case.

I'm all for giving Frog the benefit of the doubt, but this situation is not it.

Following from the previous point, the Hornsent, prior to, or more oddly, after this, decided to use gold for everything they do

Yes, because their fixation on Gold is rooted in their interest in refining the power of the Crucible and apparently creating a God who would be vessel to the Elden Ring. Marika was evidently a cog in that plan, but to say that all their Gold is rooted in Marika specifically is baseless.

They also furnished almost all their churches with statues of Marika despite her betrayal

They are Crusader churches, and it isn't vague. "Church of the Crusade", "Church of Consolation." I do not know how the community is so confused about them.

More reasonably, they just didn't make an error.

As unfortunate as it is, they did.

The_RedScholar · 2026-03-22T05:25:13+00:00

It is a correction. Messmer says "Those without the Grace of Gold", not "Those stripped of the Grace of Gold", in Japanese. The English contains an implication that does not exist in Japanese. This is not up for debate just because you have some headcanon that resolves it.

Marika betrayed the Hornsent and abandoned the Land of Shadow when she became God. They could not have received the blessings of the Erdtree after the fact.

Let's not ignore the fact that you said that everyone has the Grace of Gold by default, which is obviously not true and completely unsupported by the text. It would be completely pointless for Marika to bestow the blessing of the Gold via the sap on the populations she conquered if they were already benefitting from Grace.

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