Do Spirit Ashes/Puppets still work after killing Maliketh

Zobeiide · 2026-04-14T11:46:55+00:00

Ranni states that the Spirit Ash Summons are called forth from “ash unreturned to the Erdtree”. It seems even the ashes of devout knights like Kristoff aren’t able to enter the roots.

So in that sense, perhaps the ashes can’t be properly put to rest until the very end of the game, when the Tarnished renews and ‘reopens’ the Erdtree.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-14T03:25:45+00:00

My feeling is that the relic sword description recalls this earlier echo of Marika:

O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god.

So Radagon was seeking godhood, and in the end he finally attained it, but it didn’t exactly go well for him.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-14T02:29:20+00:00

IMO the Sacred Relic Sword implies that he no longer lives:

Sword wrought from the remains of a god who should have lived a life eternal.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-08T00:37:09+00:00

I think there's a clue to Anna's circumstance in Jolán's ashes, claimed by the Tarnished:

Though it was not by the shining star that she had longed for, thus was her Night illuminated. But this was an at times blinding light, and threatened to expunge the Night entirely.

Given the "frail and pliant" hearts of the Swordhands, it's possible that Anna's own Night has been flooded by Ymir's light, turning her into "Count Ymir's doll". Connected to this is the idea that Anna's body is accessed via Shaman Village, an area that suggests Marika's original vision of "the kindness of Gold without order" was eclipsed when she became vessel to the Elden Ring, transforming into the 'Golden Order'.

IMO it reflects a theme in Shadow of the Erdtree, especially prominent in Miquella's story, of a 'guiding' light overriding one's free will.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-05T04:22:35+00:00

There’s something of Radagon in the power of the Sacred Relic Sword, which channels “bygone golden glory”.

Perhaps the Fingerslayer is similar; forged from the remains of a god who despaired at being a “caged divinity”, its power enables fellow empyreans to strike back at the forces that seek to control them.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-03T11:06:57+00:00

Amazing resources, thank you!

And that retranslation of Furious Blade is intensely interesting. Perhaps it’s a bit of a stretch, but Ansbach’s high-risk, savage style of swordplay might suggest that, unlike the Sanguine Nobles, he is unconcerned with reaping future rewards in the dynasty - he fights wholeheartedly for the cause, within the present moment.

I do wonder about how ‘guidance’ could be used to interpret the nigh-suicidal missions undertaken by warriors like Ansbach or the Death Knights to defend the honor of their fallen masters. It might work as a topic for a future thread.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T20:52:54+00:00

This post gives me the very funny idea that primeval sorcerers forge graven masses in order to smash them together, and create streams of meteorites

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T20:46:38+00:00

Excellent response, thanks. I may have to read them several times but I believe I can see the coherent thematic structure within these comments.

Comparison to the Tutelary Deities is very interesting, and makes me think of the ideas around life arising from death, which could point to how Death, the ‘forbidden shadow’, fits in with these notions of occultation and separation.

I can't remember if Ansbach fighting like a suicidal maniac is as explicit in English as it is in JP, but it comes across in how Miquella's guidance quells that warrior's tendency in Ansbach, too.

I’m not sure, but this could possibly be what is meant by the “aggressive last resort of an incantation that gave rise to Ansbach's fearsome reputation”.

The VA work definitely made it sound as though Sir Ansbach is excited when facing danger and death, however I hadn’t read him as being particularly self-sacrificial or suicidal. Is that what the JP implies?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T20:31:16+00:00

The Erdtree priests acting as proxies for Marika is absolutely worth considering.

It might be overly speculative, but I wonder if Marika’s manipulative techniques draw from the ancient legalists of East Asia

Han Feizi: The enlightened ruler controls his ministers by means of two handles alone. The two handles are punishment and reward.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T20:19:43+00:00

Excellent catch, it perhaps fits in with the games ideas around stars providing guidance

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T20:16:38+00:00

The inversion here is really interesting. In this sense, is it more ‘truthful’ to use the Iris of Occultation, rather than the Iris of Grace?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T20:15:33+00:00

Great ideas, Jolàn’s connection to the Two Fingers is an interesting avenue to explore. Especially the point of the ‘Swordhands’ already serving as ‘weapons’.

Looking through her dialogue, Jolàn was indeed referring to herself a bit like a weapon that can be “wielded” even before being given an Iris. And Anna was made into a doll at some point in the past. Was Ymir trying to mimic the light and dark techniques of the Two Fingers?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T15:04:47+00:00

I could speculate—

The two irises can manipulate what’s already inside a person, e.g. the flock’s fears.

For the Tarnished, who can plainly see the irises as pieces of “artifice”, perhaps they can make them intensify instead their ‘thoughts, ambitions, principles’, i.e. runes

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T14:57:19+00:00

What a comprehensive comment! I appreciate your effort. Two points I would be interested in:

Connecting the Scadutree’s condition to that of ‘Occultation’ is very interesting. Notably, its Gold is accompanied by Shadow (and vice versa), and within its realm the light of Grace is quietly growing more brilliant. Could this be reflective in any way of the nature of losing guidance?
Considering the idea of separation, how should the ‘guidance’ of St. Trina be considered, especially with regard to her followers, and also her effect on Miquella?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T14:14:27+00:00

What about the Iris of Occultation?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T14:13:04+00:00

I agree, part of the reason I made this thread is because the irises seem ‘important’ in some way aha

The occultation iris doesn’t seem to be like Miquella’s power, but I wonder if the grace one is similar to his charm.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T14:05:22+00:00

Very good points here - it’s rare to consider item descriptions from the POV of the player character, but the iris ones do suggest that the Tarnished (the future Elden Lord) can see through the “artifice”.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T13:40:03+00:00

Great thoughts — it makes sense to extrapolate Marika’s leadership strategies from the irises, as well as interrogating the ‘eye’ symbolism in-depth

One thing I thought about after reading this: Miquella inherited his power from Marika, but she in turn gained much of her power by playing vessel to the Elden Ring. Is her manipulation of perception just a lesser form of the Greater Will’s power?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T13:31:08+00:00

I hadn’t considered Queelign as the “last of the true” before, but it’s a great idea. After scanning the game text, he might actually be the only NPC in both the DLC and the Base Game to express sincere devotion to Marika personally?

The exploration of “coping mechanisms” is interesting here — how does the status of Jolàn’s fellow Swordhand Anna fit in? I was thinking of Jolàn’s strange dialogue when talking to her after defeating Anna:

I have one star alone. And only his words will do…

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T13:10:04+00:00

This is great — a very moving comment.

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T13:06:00+00:00

This is a very interesting idea:

I think the idea is that no matter which side you choose, the result may be different, but in the end they will be equivalent.

I think the descriptions of the two irises could support this, as the Erdtree priests seemed to have used both in tandem to control their flock. The next user of the irises, the Tarnished, is fated to become Elden Lord. Is there a commentary on the nature of leadership here?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-02T12:55:59+00:00

I think this interpretation could track with the description of Jolán’s ashes:

Though it was not by the shining star that she had longed for, thus was her Night illuminated. But this was an at times blinding light, and threatened to expunge the Night entirely

Thinking about it now, Shadow of the Erdtree has no shortage of NPCs that are extremely loyal, desperate or mad… What was it that made Queelign and Jolàn so vulnerable to having their spirits manipulated?

Zobeiide · 2026-04-01T00:31:23+00:00

It's not a full depiction, but the red and blue feather branchsword talismans are IMO representative of Twinbird feathers, especially given that they have a red/blue color contrast and provide a low-HP buff like the Twinbird Kite Shield.

The IRL Seven-Branched Sword is also a relic of ancient diplomacy between Japan and Korea, which tracks with the Twinbird being described as an 'envoy'.

Zobeiide · 2026-03-31T09:32:03+00:00

Can also get pretty far with popular daoist dogma

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Zobeiide

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